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Post by kazuhiro808 on Aug 14, 2011 14:56:14 GMT -5
Hello, boys and girls. As some of you are probably aware, this game borrows heavily from Shadowrun. As such, I thought I'd post up a discussion of what I see as the game's weaknesses.
Let me lead off by saying that I really respect the idea of this game. A cyberpunk-themed sandbox RPG? Pretty awesome. Try not to see my criticism here as disappointment with the game, but as hope for its potential. I won't say anything silly like "improve the graphics" or "add more characters," what I have to say here is strictly about gameplay.
The first issue I have with the game is the total lack of a tutorial. I had to figure out the AP system for myself, and even at that I'm not sure why sometimes I can use my AP to kite and shoot whereas other times the turn ends while I've still got 4 ap left. This extends to other things too, like buildings- it took me a while to happen by chance on a job, and thereafter I knew how to recognize the job symbol. I suppose a forced, comprehensive tutorial will be in the story mode? If so, disregard this section.
My second complaint, and it's no less important, is the fact that I played the game for an hour and a half or so and found no use for anything except combat skills. Look at Fallout 2- almost nothing in the game can't be overcome with diplomacy. If you want characters that only have a small splash of combat skills to be viable- and my impression is that that you probably do- you should look to Fallout and Planescape: Torment. An option to lie to enforcers to get them off you, or maybe a quick wireless spoof to divert them?
As for ways to make noncombat skills useful, I would suggest having certain factions and/or establishments always give certain types of missions, thus allowing players to choose what kinds of jobs they do while still having a little randomness. Additionally, fixers like that Rat fella should give you jobs relevant to your skills.
Finally, the game won't be very fun if all the jobs are glorified fetch quests. I saved this for last because it's the closest I'm willing to get to a pointless "make it better" suggestion. I would like to see "dungeon crawl" type jobs, the kind that Shadowrun teams typically do, where the objective is to steal something from a secure facility. When I sarted the game I played the class that was described as "being able to deal with security systems as well as guards," but as far as I've seen there isn't any need to deal with security systems. I know it sounds demanding, but I would consider missions more elaborate than "go here, click dialogue, maybe shoot some dudes" important for this game to be as good as it could be."
A small nitpick: you have cyber-augs but no cell phone?
Another quick nitpick: there's a walled off section of the city but no security checkpoint preventing riffraff from me from getting in?
Thanks for reading through my feedback. I'll come back to this thread to discuss whatever you wish, and good luck developing this game! I've bought the Elite version to support you, and I can already tell that I won't regret it.
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Post by fallen on Aug 14, 2011 16:34:07 GMT -5
@kazuhiro - in order =)
#1. We are working on the guide. The guide now contains a listing of common building attributes, to which you should refer. A tutorial will obviously be much more useful. It will be included in the first story mode (Daniel).
#2. Agreed, and for now, we hide behind "BETA" =) Bear with me. We are aware that there a lot of classes and abilities in the system that are not currently exposed or even viable. Negotiation, hacking, cracking locks, phreaking terminals, talking your way out of trouble, etc--all has a long way to go. If you happened to be around as we developed Star Traders (our other game, currently) you will see a similar development ark, in which we are about to spend the next 3-4 months making Cyber Knights into exactly what you are asking for, based on what you and the rest of the community is asking. We definitely have a long list of "doors" or opportunities that non-combat skills will open for you, and how they will become more important in the job as a whole.
#3. The current set of jobs are the basics. There is a list of additional basic job types that are slotted to be added, such as hacking jobs, implanting viruses, stealing specific paydata, etc. With that said, most of them still follow the same simple (one to two step) pattern. These types of jobs are great for making some money, getting in with a faction, and the like. A second tier of jobs is coming, "operations" which will feature multi-step, multi-skill requirements. Currently, your street sam can complete an job on the list which a hacker or a face is only good at a subset. This diversity will increase until you cannot completely 50% of the job types well with just any one class, and operations will compound this complexity. Therefore, the requirement for a team of runners comes to the fore, which is in the works even now. I believe operations is what you crave.
#4. Open air communication through cell phones is extremely in-secure. Space is also only accessible to the Aztek corporation, and they are playing their cards tight to their chest and not offering the service. No connector or contact is willing to talk to a Cyber Knight through an unsecured line, and therefore, a hard line, and a secure connection, established through a V-Chip is required.
#5. As the encounter list grows, those checkpoints will become less and less fun to navigate. If you are liked by the right people, there will usually be ways around available to you, and there are already a growing set of special entrances and exits that can make coming and going from the city center easier or faster. Also, someday soon, the taxi services are going to get the smack down and be limited to their local neighborhoods, meaning that a taxi from the slums can no longer take you into the walled city center. NBZ ain't getting any friendly, chummer.
#6 - thanks for the well thought out post! As the artist, I am glad you didn't harangue me for my artwork =}
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Post by kazuhiro808 on Aug 14, 2011 17:12:08 GMT -5
I know that whoever did the artwork isn't going to do any better just because I bitch about it. You're not hiring artists, you're doing your own best work.
Though the female character's boobs, yellow clothes, and boxing gloves bug me a little.
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Post by k0rd on Aug 14, 2011 19:12:15 GMT -5
awesome thread i'm thirsty for some operations jobs now
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Post by Nenesse on Aug 15, 2011 3:24:43 GMT -5
Another quick note.
It seems you can kite out of the range of guns forever albeit at a decent AP cost but this makes enemies with melee attacks pretty pointless. I would suggest making it so that guns can be fired from out of range, but at a penalty.
However I don't know what framework the battle system is built on nor do I have much of an understanding of the system mechanics so I can't speak with much authority. Still- moving and fighting feels weird, possibly because it isn't explained in depth at any point.
Quick question, why is it that I sometimes can't attack with my weapon's whole Speed rating?
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Post by Nenesse on Aug 15, 2011 3:26:00 GMT -5
Another quick note.
It seems you can kite out of the range of guns forever albeit at a decent AP cost but this makes enemies with melee attacks pretty pointless. I would suggest making it so that guns can be fired from out of range, but at a penalty.
However I don't know what framework the battle system is built on nor do I have much of an understanding of the system mechanics so I can't speak with much authority. Still- moving and fighting feels weird, possibly because it isn't explained in depth at any point.
Quick question, why is it that I sometimes can't attack with my weapon's whole Speed rating?
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Post by kazuhiro808 on Aug 15, 2011 3:28:51 GMT -5
That was me, sorry for the double post.
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Post by fallen on Aug 15, 2011 9:56:08 GMT -5
@kazuhiro - the speed rating is a potential for combo. If you have high speed, and you start to hit or fire accurately, you may be able to continue to pop off meaningful shots to tag your enemy. Consider firing a big bug at a potentially moving target. Recoil plays a factor too. If you shots veer off the target and are wide, you aren't able to get "back on target" in that round of firing. If your shots hit or "are close misses" you can keep shooting at the central mass and hit. Consider the fact that your Cyber Knight stops firing if his chances of hitting are over as a good way to save ammo.
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Post by kazuhiro808 on Aug 15, 2011 14:29:32 GMT -5
Ah. I would suggest writing in some differentiation between wide misses and narrow misses, then. Either "your shot goes wide and hits a nearby window" or simply "Critical Miss."
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Post by LordofSyn on Aug 22, 2011 19:10:12 GMT -5
@kazuhiro - the speed rating is a potential for combo. If you have high speed, and you start to hit or fire accurately, you may be able to continue to pop off meaningful shots to tag your enemy. Consider firing a big bug at a potentially moving target. Recoil plays a factor too. If you shots veer off the target and are wide, you aren't able to get "back on target" in that round of firing. If your shots hit or "are close misses" you can keep shooting at the central mass and hit. Consider the fact that your Cyber Knight stops firing if his chances of hitting are over as a good way to save ammo. Fallen, I know it's awfully cliche of me, but are there no smart-gun & systems out?? I understand the cyberloader works. it works very well. thank you. I guess the closest I could get was the cyber eye that gives Perception bonus with said cyberloader. lol.
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Post by Cory Trese on Aug 22, 2011 19:38:47 GMT -5
Gun Link, Gun Link ^2 and Gun Display Link.
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Post by LordofSyn on Aug 22, 2011 19:41:54 GMT -5
... um, ok. I've seen them in Faction descriptions, but haven't seen them in any stores. I stand corrected. lol. thanks. I have many many more ideas. would love to share. ... um, ok. I've seen them in Faction descriptions, but haven't seen them in any stores. I stand corrected. lol. thanks. I have many many more ideas. would love to share.
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Post by Cory Trese on Aug 25, 2011 3:01:05 GMT -5
start a thread, trust me, we'll make good use =)
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Post by Jim on Aug 8, 2014 17:06:13 GMT -5
Bought the game awhile and love it. A couple things: 1. I'd like an exosuit type of system available for purchase like the suits they are showing off in call of duty advanced war fighter. Maybe some with melee weapons and some with ranged weapons, better armour/weaker armour, and maybe your mp is related to the battery power for the unit like you have to use your cyber computer to plug into the suit and it is physically and mentally taxing so one needs to have proper rest and stuff. There was a cartoon in the early 90's called "exosquad" where the soldiers had to actually hook up there brains into the exosuit in order for it to work, something similar to that 2. There should be a custom character start like from the ground up: a list of starting equipments, a list of character portraits, maybe even a starting skills list like d&d where one would roll to get there skill points to start with, choose a faction to start with or go solo 3. The dual shot should be able to work with any two pistols as long as they are similar, like you can't use a taser with a revolver, but if I have a revolver and an auto pistol I should be able to use them together regardless of stats. There should also be a one handed shogun that can be dual wielded 4. All classes should have a "skill tree" of some sort that is dedicated to the specific class. Like cyberswords should be able to learn special movements in combat or maybe take a proficiency in a specific weapon like a blade or Club, so the player would get a slight advantage with the specific weapon. Or like the gunslinger can choose to specialize in pistols or rifles and get bonuses and attack commands related to the type of weapon, like "fanning" with a revolver like the old west, or a "headshot" attack, or "disarm" attack. 5. On the topic of skill trees each class should have a prestige or advanced training section. For example, a sniper at some point should get the option to spend XP and become like a "combat marksmen" where he gets to make a second shot as long as the first shot killed the opponent, or the "silent killer" which allows one to be silent and draw no attention or engagements for a short time or even the option to be able to engage enemies before they begin an engagement. Or the Gunslinger can prestige to a "Sharpshooter" which like gives you the ability to attack more than one opponent per turn, or a "Gun-Fu" which allows the Gunslinger a far higher success rate and damage output at closer ranges and maybe give new attack options like a "counter shot" or a "pistol whip" or even an option to allow oneself to skip combat but it gives more defensive choices like "disarm" and "counter" 6. There should be a "technomancy" class. Since magic isn't in the game we should have something similar, like the ability to use electricity as a weapon, or drones that can be used in battle. Special attacks could include like the ability to temporarily shut down another knights computer system, or interrupt another knights implants to attacks their stats or something like that. 7. Lastly I think a player should be able to cross-class, maybe at a penalty but characters should be able to choose a second class and get the abilities that come with it Okay so that's my list for now lol: Exosuits, fully custom characters, dual shot update, skill tree, prestige classes, "technomancy", and cross-classing. I hope this isn't too much to ask at once and I mean no offense you guys have made a very fun game. I also feel there should be either swords like katanas and gladius's, or maybe even something fun like "energy blades" and an ability to defend against them like "energy shielding" or something. And if you make an energy blade the exo suit should have one as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 10:45:06 GMT -5
Bought the game awhile and love it. A couple things: 1. I'd like an exosuit type of system available for purchase like the suits they are showing off in call of duty advanced war fighter. Maybe some with melee weapons and some with ranged weapons, better armour/weaker armour, and maybe your mp is related to the battery power for the unit like you have to use your cyber computer to plug into the suit and it is physically and mentally taxing so one needs to have proper rest and stuff. There was a cartoon in the early 90's called "exosquad" where the soldiers had to actually hook up there brains into the exosuit in order for it to work, something similar to that 2. There should be a custom character start like from the ground up: a list of starting equipments, a list of character portraits, maybe even a starting skills list like d&d where one would roll to get there skill points to start with, choose a faction to start with or go solo 3. The dual shot should be able to work with any two pistols as long as they are similar, like you can't use a taser with a revolver, but if I have a revolver and an auto pistol I should be able to use them together regardless of stats. There should also be a one handed shogun that can be dual wielded 4. All classes should have a "skill tree" of some sort that is dedicated to the specific class. Like cyberswords should be able to learn special movements in combat or maybe take a proficiency in a specific weapon like a blade or Club, so the player would get a slight advantage with the specific weapon. Or like the gunslinger can choose to specialize in pistols or rifles and get bonuses and attack commands related to the type of weapon, like "fanning" with a revolver like the old west, or a "headshot" attack, or "disarm" attack. 5. On the topic of skill trees each class should have a prestige or advanced training section. For example, a sniper at some point should get the option to spend XP and become like a "combat marksmen" where he gets to make a second shot as long as the first shot killed the opponent, or the "silent killer" which allows one to be silent and draw no attention or engagements for a short time or even the option to be able to engage enemies before they begin an engagement. Or the Gunslinger can prestige to a "Sharpshooter" which like gives you the ability to attack more than one opponent per turn, or a "Gun-Fu" which allows the Gunslinger a far higher success rate and damage output at closer ranges and maybe give new attack options like a "counter shot" or a "pistol whip" or even an option to allow oneself to skip combat but it gives more defensive choices like "disarm" and "counter" 6. There should be a "technomancy" class. Since magic isn't in the game we should have something similar, like the ability to use electricity as a weapon, or drones that can be used in battle. Special attacks could include like the ability to temporarily shut down another knights computer system, or interrupt another knights implants to attacks their stats or something like that. 7. Lastly I think a player should be able to cross-class, maybe at a penalty but characters should be able to choose a second class and get the abilities that come with it Okay so that's my list for now lol: Exosuits, fully custom characters, dual shot update, skill tree, prestige classes, "technomancy", and cross-classing. I hope this isn't too much to ask at once and I mean no offense you guys have made a very fun game. I also feel there should be either swords like katanas and gladius's, or maybe even something fun like "energy blades" and an ability to defend against them like "energy shielding" or something. And if you make an energy blade the exo suit should have one as well.
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