P2: XP and RP balance for Character Development

[Cory Trese]

This is a great thread. Please report back as you go. Experiment with wildly unbalanced builds.

Use respec a lot -- the Templar's have access to generations of unlock-able knowledge. Once you master their lineages, your army becomes more and more flexible. Gear is free. Go crazy =)

[En1gma]

What do you mean Gear is free? Equipping wont use Gear Points?

[fallen]

En1gma - there is no cost to swapping gear and respecing. Do it as often as you like.

[ntsheep]

I'm confused, how does one repsec? I've not noticed that in the game so far. What am I missing?

[fallen]

ntsheep - it was mentioned in the change log ...

HQ > Veterans > pick a Templar > Score > Respec or Dismiss

[ntsheep]

Thanks fallen, knew I missed something. Curse my old age

[fallen]

Np -- they are currently kind of tucked away while we try to find their permanent home.

[ntsheep]

Jun 30, 2015 13:11:47 GMT -5 fallen said:

Np -- they are currently kind of tucked away while we try to find their permanent home.

Support the TB's and help give menu options a forever home

[contributor]

Jun 30, 2015 11:19:37 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

This is so interesting! Quiet a bit different than our squad building experience which leads me to more questions than answers.

- How often are you using Respec?
- What levels are you discussing?
- Can you send me the saved games for analysis?
- Are you using Boost In or Super Boost In?

I've built and tested a dozen highly specialized squads over the past week, from level 1 to level 22 more than ten times.

Super critical that we get some further details so we can really narrow in on what is causing the disconnect between the game math, my squads and the alpha perceptions.

I think we have to start with good clear answers on those first four questions.

Shucks, I started typing up a big response that gave lots of specifics about my team and I hit a few wrong keys and it got sent to the great digital dustbin. I would also note that, for me, this is a discussion about balance and not about whether anything in the game is broken. As, I believe, @brutusauraleius said it may simply be that there is too much RP which may or may not be a consequence of Boost-In. My highest level team has the Captain at level 12. To try and answer some of the above questions. 1) I haven't messed with Respec yet. 2) Capn is level 12 and so is Dalan and probably the Engineer. 3) Don't know, I'm not rooted, but do have a file explorer. 4) This team went through the tutorial, then got the original Boost-in before going on to play through the existing levels a few times.

So the run-down on this team is that the Captain is level 12 and so is at least Dalan Ortho. I'm pretty sure he's been on every deployment that I've done so far and I have another soldier who is probably a level behind him. I've invested in 6 Soldier specific RP areas and he is currently maxed out for gear and has 6 Overwatch and 4 Burst for talents. His gear is currently maxed out so I can't add anymore until he levels up. My other classes have invested in the following number of RP areas in their specific areas; Scouts 7, Captain 6, Engineer and Neptune 5, Hydra and Paladin 4 and Berserker 3. I would say that's a pretty balanced field considering the point you also have to invest in the more general categories (melee specialist, heavy infantry etc.) just to unlock the characters. I've got 256 RP in the bank because I'm trying to save some for when a bunch of guys level up and need to get them some stuff that they can use. So I have some points I could spend, but for most of my classes I would be buying something before anyone can use it. If, for example on this team I had decided I'm not going to invest in Berserk at all and I'm just going to focus on Soldiers I would have like 600 RP sitting around that wouldn't be useful because I would be unlocking stuff I don't need. So I invest those points in a Berserk and try to spawn him in to as many missions as possible just so that he can try and keep up on XP and use that wonderful RP stuff I just bought for him.

Does that help?

[Cory Trese]

We're looking at increasing the amount of RP by a good bit, I think that will help -- especially above Level 6.

[Cory Trese]

It appears, after more analysis, that the Boost In XP to RP ratio is too high, and the normal level XP to RP ratio is too low.

fallen is busy on some additional tech tree and math balancing passes that will hopefully lay a foundation for improvements here.

[anvil]

This is very interesting, and something I've thought much about.

Instead of responding to your 4 questions I want to try and abstract what I think is happening within the realm of game design theory. (Sounds rather pompous, sorry and I hope I can pull this off) Call it a neophyte view of game design, with all the inherent problems and pitfalls.

Do understand I've played your games since early on with Cyber Knights and put your games amonst the top no matter what tech you use(smartphone, computer)

Basically you guys are literally genius level at balance. Your storyline development is second to none.

What I see is the finer you tune balance, the fewer actual successful pathways to successfully completing the game their actually are. I.E., this limits gamer tactics(how to play the level) and strategy(how to use your SP/RP uniquely and personally.)

So gameplay tactically and strategically boils down to figuring out your balance, then playing within those parameters to beat the map(actually beat the level designer). Primary to this is finishing the game below your time constraints, as to not get the bonus points is a formula for defeat. The drawback to this is replay. Once you figure this out, its a cakewalk, or at least the challenge is way less. Respect may change this, but I suspect not. Each unique team has its own special way of following this path created by balance, but the path remains the same.

I believe, in an abstract way, this is what is being discussed here.

Unfortunately I have no clue as to how to give constructive criticism as to how to accomplish this. The only analogy I can give is chess. The balance is utterly simple, the replay is infinite.



Hope it helps.

[Cory Trese]

The trick seems to be many small interchangable design components that are balanced against each other.

The player then assembles surprising strategies from the individual components -- often in ways the designer never expected.

Because the core underlying math is correct, those unexpected strategies are more or less balanced against each other, but the player's cleverness can eek out substantial enough advantages that make a difference in the game.

[fallen]

Jul 2, 2015 8:14:40 GMT -5 anvil said:

The only analogy I can give is chess. The balance is utterly simple, the replay is infinite.

In this case, I think so much of the discussion is about player agency in creating their own unique strategy.

If you really get deep into chess, there are very defined paths of play, at least as opening moves. And every unit is set in its capabilities.

I really love that in some games I rely on my twin heavy plasma Soldiers to push through everything, but in my other game it's Scouts backed by one Leader-in-the-Ranks Soldier who makes them insane with Buff power. You get to build your strategy, and see if it is the best.

[anvil]

Fallen, you are correct concerning the path (s) in chess. The middle game can,get very convoluted, then the end game is "all roads lead to ___".

I would like to see more paths in these scenarios. All,uniquely balanced and each different. Even two would be cool!

where they crossed would be even more interesting. And this would create more playability and a more in depth understanding of the game.