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Post by th334 on Mar 4, 2017 20:23:03 GMT -5
Suggestion, streamline: Remove the ability to run back to a camp anytime to restore HP/SP for free.
I try to be as efficient with resources as possible, playing on the highest difficulties. As such, every time I need to regain HP/SP after a battle and I can run back to a camp, I will do that instead of wasting valuable potions. There is no danger in running back to the camp as far as I know, as no new enemies spawn. So I would run back to heal even if it's really far. This is very tedious however, but this flawed game mechanic forces optimal play to be tedious, if you know what I mean.
So two ways to fix this off the top of my head:
1) Allow resting anywhere to regain HP/SP where running to camp is possible. Nothing really changes, except a huge amount of wasted gameplay time is removed.
2) Or make it dangerous or impossible to be running back to the camp all the time.
My favourite option is to allow using each camp only once (or twice, or you can add extra camps to balance this if you wish). Reason, "It is getting too dangerous to rest in this area any longer." This will suddenly make efficient healing talents and full potion supply much more relevant as a bonus. Also, so that players can't run all the way to the city and heal there for free, make the tavern charge a small amount of gold for resting/healing.
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Post by En1gma on Mar 4, 2017 20:46:43 GMT -5
Option one I like. Option two I'll never pick up the game again.
The campsite design is so ingrained in the game that I don't think it will ever get changed. Alternatively, I would like to see like four times the number of campsites on each map, perhaps unlockable ones that need to have an entire section cleared out to use.
More than anything, I would prefer a reduction in the potion totals in the game and just have the team be healed to full after every fight. This could be a reason to rebalance AP totals for the different potions, and make them necessary for combat only. I think this would be the number one way to streamline the gameplay and make the entire thing much faster to play.
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Post by th334 on Mar 4, 2017 21:09:16 GMT -5
Option one I like. Option two I'll never pick up the game again. The campsite design is so ingrained in the game that I don't think it will ever get changed. Alternatively, I would like to see like four times the number of campsites on each map, perhaps unlockable ones that need to have an entire section cleared out to use. More than anything, I would prefer a reduction in the potion totals in the game and just have the team be healed to full after every fight. This could be a reason to rebalance AP totals for the different potions, and make them necessary for combat only. I think this would be the number one way to streamline the gameplay and make the entire thing much faster to play. Either of those would work for me too. The easiest option is probably auto heal after combat, so that there's no need to tinker with campsites. Seeing how the game being on the slow side is one of the more frequent complaints people have, I think it's particularly important for this title to improve in this area. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 4, 2017 22:39:38 GMT -5
Although back tracking to heal can be annoying, it doesn't really NEED to occur, depending on build and play style. Auto healing would be great for some builds (soak/hp heavy), but super avoidance builds (top players have figured out how to rarely get hit even on NMI, outside of boss battles at least) won't be affected greatly. It doesn't really consider scoring ... camping costs score. I don't play for score myself, but I still avoid camping behind me if it takes additional time compared to healing with talents and potions. Although I'd like the streamlined less clicky, healing in combat only, it would mess with a different kind of efficient play (how little healing and camping is possible etc.) and the leader board play. Maybe for LoS (L=Legends - the planned sequel), but in HoS it would likely need to be an unranked difficulty option and more options of the sort have been said no to ... but you are correct that it would make some aspects of the game more approachable and streamlined for sure. That's why LoS is planned to have a different approach than HoS, e.g. always active "auras" instead of sp afaik - lots of feedback points to that. The hp/sp heal and recovery system has been a bit cludgy, but some LIKE the meta game of it and was intended to be that way as best I know... If you can convince the brothers to offer an auto heal at combat end unranked game difficulty toggle that be great (or maybe only for easy for casuals, but that wouldn't help your playing the higher diffs...), but I've seen that and many like options shot down for lots of different reasons, so... They have added more campsites already too, maybe a few more would be ok, but uh... only so much change is acceptable before it ceases to be the intended game anymore. Limited time and resources are of course some of the constraints and not just the intended design, so both factor in. Sorry for rambling - I'm conflicted on the matter ... already looking forward to LoS but still like HoS too...  |
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Post by th334 on Mar 5, 2017 0:35:02 GMT -5
It doesn't really consider scoring ... camping costs score. Not sure how big the effect is, but unfortunately this is not good enough motivation for people who don't care about the score. But I like your idea of preserving some kind of relevance to off-combat healing management. But I feel like just score is not doing it right either. You see, if you want to have pressure to manage healing off-combat and find this gameplay rewarding, score penalty doesn't put enough pressure, because you can always cheat and run to a camp. Yeah you'll lose some score, but who cares. So I say either make HP/SP management off-combat an important part of the game by disallowing free healing, or automate it. Maybe automate healing by default and add a hardcore game mode where camping is limited and there is no free healing. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 5, 2017 1:22:03 GMT -5
Some care for score enough ... not myself or you apparently. I care about time loss... Auto healing, like auto buff, has been suggested many times but no solution for all player preference has been found AFAIK. I'm sure it's mostly doable, but I also don't have to code it or suffer greatly if 20% of the player base doesn't like the implementation ... talk about a way to potentially tank reviews and consequently lose face and financial ability to continue making such games at all ... Like I said -I- think it's possible, but I'm neither coding nor getting direct feedback from the broad community preferences. That being said, if you have a clear suggestion on how to automate healing via talents without players feeling like their power to control how their sp is spent or the like is lost, I like hearing those ideas myself, even if not implemented. Of course sp cost free healing after combat as discussed above would break the leaderboards without some really fancy maths and play changes that not all players would appreciate, though potentially good for accessibility for many, new players especially. One of the difficulties of learning the game for many is learning how not to run out of potions even with the "free" healing ... running backwards all the time is certainly not free time wise anyway, and is part of the complaint I thought. The top scoring players pretty much all avoid healing whenever possible. The next tier down even on nm diff start using healing more often, some are the very same top scorers just playing different builds, so it's not likely a tactical ability difference of disparate players. There are 3 reasons for this discrepancy that I know of ottomh, camping hurts score, spending money (on pots etc.) hurts score below 500k, and more importantly for those of us not caring for score, healing talents take away precious talent points from the healers other options. The last potentially saves both time and score, so the shield talents are often preferred over healing for example. So yes, healing could become more important and/or more efficient, but both would alienate different groups of players, as far as the various sides have argued since I've been on the forum and I've argued the same as you at times ... I guess the majority is not large enough and/or the play testing the brothers tried didn't turn out like the player base has assumed it would - that happens. Maybe if the healers got some healing exclusive talent points, or there were some other surgery to it, but that eliminates a tension of scarcity between talent choices that are integral to the game's intent as well I believe. |
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Post by coyoteazul on Mar 5, 2017 13:01:41 GMT -5
How about this
Reduce the sp cost of healing abilities when not in combat OR double potion's effect when out of combat OR give healer's a passive ability that makes single target potions multitarget when used out of combat (this ability could share more % of the potion's effect as the ability level's up)
I think that this changes would make running back to camp less atractive because healing through other methods out of battle would be cheaper
Right now, healing abilities feel useless to me. I used to have kyera with a high level of myshana's tear for kyera, but since it costed too much and healed barely enough, I only ever used it on battle and whenever using potions wasn't the best choise considering AP. Using it outside of battle would have me constantly depleting my SP, and running back to camp to replenish, only a little bit less often than I did if I didn't heal and replenished health with camps.
I respeced kyera and ignored myshana's tear completeley, in favor of banishment (which dissapointed me a bit because SP drain abilities don't multiply by the number of targets) and now kyera is far more efective.
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Post by contributor on Mar 8, 2017 16:18:56 GMT -5
To me it feels pretty good as it is. The cost of having to run back to camp all the time is tediousness. If you don't like tediousness, figure out how to be more sp/hp efficient and use your potions accordingly. It doesn't make sense to force everyone to be disciplined by getting rid of the possibility of re-camping.
Actually right-now, mid-Episode 2, I go almost completely without camping except to level up. Thats on Nightmare difficulty. There's no point in this game to stockpiling insane amounts of potions either. Eventually the ones you get in E1 will be so useless in E2, because of your SP/HP needs, that you might as well use them when they make a significant difference.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 8, 2017 16:25:45 GMT -5
There are sections of the game where camping is limited to a certain set, exhaust-able resource. Everyone's play style is different, but today the majority of players (on all difficulties) use potions and use healing abilities. Camping after ever battle is an exceedingly rare style (approximate 1% of players use it.) I love to hear the feedback but we have a lot of data that the camping system, and the different varieties of challenges the game presents using it, are working pretty well. How far along is the OP? Are you into Episode 3 yet?  |
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Post by fallen on Mar 8, 2017 16:36:21 GMT -5
Notably, there are also places in teh game where camping is controlled by a limited resource. You can't use a campsite without a certain item, which is consumed when you camp.
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Post by chenrazee2 on May 13, 2018 7:59:48 GMT -5
Reading your second option, I'm understanding "the game's too easy for me, the developer should make it harder for everyone"
Why not set yourself a personal challenge? Only use the rest camps once. If you do it, great! You've solved your own issue.
If you cheat and use a camp more than once, you'll realise your suggestion is impractical.
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Post by fallen on May 13, 2018 13:56:42 GMT -5
Just to note, this is not something we are changing at any point in Heroes of Steel's future.
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