Rank 1 Talent Suggestions

[fallen]

athios - completely agree with your analysis. Specialists are part of the crew, just as much as Crew Dogs are part of the crew. We aren't going to remove any one of the the given specialists on the grounds that "this specialist is specialized!".

This thread itself is clear admission that some jobs need work. Gunner is on that list, without a doubt.

[resistor]

Jun 13, 2017 19:29:10 GMT -5 athios said:

...For example, what do combat crew (BH, Soldier, Pistoleer, Swordsman) do when you aren't in crew combat? Nothing! They were hired to fight, and that's all they do...

The BH has Navigation skills

[grävling]

Jun 13, 2017 19:29:10 GMT -5 athios said:

I think it could be argued either way. For example, what do combat crew (BH, Soldier, Pistoleer, Swordsman) do when you aren't in crew combat? Nothing! They were hired to fight, and that's all they do. No one's gonna ask, "Hey Soldier Boy, why don't git over here and help swab the deck?" — at least, no one still alive anyway.

Gunners are there to man the Guns because no one else knows how to do it properly. Crew Dogs only help support Gun operations, but can't handle it on their own.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. We could start another thread on this if we want to discuss further.

I think this is the correct thread. This isn't the argument about realism in the game, this is 'what level 1 talents do we want to give gunners'? BH do a other things when they are not fighting, Unwavering Attention (pass Nav tests) Abiding Death (cheaper death warrants), with more planned that help in the tracking down and following of people who are trying to escape you. While I would be happy to see that the gunner profession get revamped so that Pilots don't completely outshine them as ship combat specialists, 'more interesting ways to kill the enemy' isn't what I need as a player. I already have this problem with the Pistoleers and Soldiers. I have a super-abundance of ways to kill in crew combat with them, and all I really want is a few good ones, which I will use all the time. Respec is really going to push things this way as well -- Skewering Thrust (Level 5 - In Crew Combat, Blade Attack hits 2 targets with +10% Blade Accuracy, +2 Armor Piercing, +25% Critical) is a great talent, but once I have Rain of Steel (Level 11 - In Crew Combat, Crippling Blade Attack hits 2 targets Stuns Target, causes -20% Armor for 2 Turns) I don't use Skewering Thrust much any more, as I am too busy using Rain of Steel. I wish my combat staff had some other talents -- esprit de Corps or something -- which fired after crew combat and helped them regain morale. Or something to patch up some hitpoints.

The Gunner already has 2 nice talents for minigames -- one for Patrol and one for Blockade, but I'd like more like this. Otherwise -- well, my ships are running perfectly well without any gunners at all at this point. To make room for one, I'd have to boot somebody off my ship. Going down my crew list, I cannot find anybody whom I think isn't already bringing more to the table than gunners do at present -- which is why they have the job now, and not the gunners. Giving the gunners more level 1 talents is a fine idea, but more death isn't what I am looking for.

So -- building on the age of Sail idea -- one thing that Gunners and other warrant officers were good for was in the shipyard.

When interesting new armaments came along, well-connected gunners got to hear about them, and try them out (if they wished to) first. Conversely, when there was a load of shoddy cannons sitting in the naval shipyard, waiting to be installed on somebody's ship, the well-connected Gunners saw that the ship that got them wasn't theirs. Well connected warrant officers (and command officers) often had enough pull that they could get their ship in and out of the shipyard, while other captains, who had been queuing for longer were stuck on the beach. Sometimes a bribe was necessary. Othertimes, this was just 'if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours sometime in the future when you need a favour.'

So -- a talent that makes the shipyard repair your ship, or install new components faster?
One that gives you access to ship weapon upgrades you otherwise wouldn't see?

[grävling]

It occurs to me that the problem I am having with Crew Dogs, Gunners, and Combat Specialists -- could be alleviated if there were a set of talents that weren't particularly job specific, but that many jobs allowed. For instance, right now Relaxing Leave and Talk in the Hall are crewdog-only, but while they have a distinct whiff of 'enlisted but not officer' to me, there isn't any particular reason why other crew members couldn't also have those talents.

And here you could get a decent set of level one talents. For instance, we re-name the Combat Medic talent 'First Aid' to something else. Something that automatically passes a Doctor's save is probably too powerful to be called First Aid in any case. 'Crisis Intervention' perhaps? Then we make a new talent, First Aid, which fires when you fail a doctor save, and reduces -- or has a chance of reducing, based on quickness and wisdom, perhaps? -- the amount of HP damage you take.

The military was forever sending me and others off to take one training or another which all fell under the category of 'Proper Initiative'. The idea is that, should you not have the proper orders for the situation you were in (perhaps because your commander wasn't there, not necessarily dead, but more likely in a meeting, or on the telephone) people didn't all sit around on their backsides waiting for somebody with authority to come by and give them the next order. They picked up the slack and figured out what to do next. Even if it wasn't as good as what would have been done if your commander had been there to give the best next order, it was still a whole lot better than nothing. This looks like a talent that fires on 'Fails a Command Save' to me.

And there are other things. Being Physically Fit means your reaction times are faster, and your morale is better. Being Well-Read means you have a greater wealth of other people's experiences to draw upon in a crisis. A host of things could be bundled under the label of having Exceptional Discipline -- which is something that can be trained, by the way.

These are things that aren't restricted to any particular profession, and maybe that would be a good thing to have. A handful of generalist talents that pretty much any regular crew could have, is something I would enjoy, at any rate.

[resistor]

Jun 14, 2017 1:14:12 GMT -5 grävling said:

...The Gunner already has 2 nice talents for minigames -- one for Patrol and one for Blockade, but I'd like more like this. Otherwise -- well, my ships are running perfectly well without any gunners at all at this point. To make room for one, I'd have to boot somebody off my ship. Going down my crew list, I cannot find anybody whom I think isn't already bringing more to the table than gunners do at present -- which is why they have the job now, and not the gunners. Giving the gunners more level 1 talents is a fine idea, but more death isn't what I am looking for.

So -- building on the age of Sail idea -- one thing that Gunners and other warrant officers were good for was in the shipyard.

When interesting new armaments came along, well-connected gunners got to hear about them, and try them out (if they wished to) first. Conversely, when there was a load of shoddy cannons sitting in the naval shipyard, waiting to be installed on somebody's ship, the well-connected Gunners saw that the ship that got them wasn't theirs. Well connected warrant officers (and command officers) often had enough pull that they could get their ship in and out of the shipyard, while other captains, who had been queuing for longer were stuck on the beach. Sometimes a bribe was necessary. Othertimes, this was just 'if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours sometime in the future when you need a favour.'

So -- a talent that makes the shipyard repair your ship, or install new components faster?
One that gives you access to ship weapon upgrades you otherwise wouldn't see?

Interesting talent ideas. The time it takes to upgrade components is not normally a problem for me (at least, not in this stage of the Alpha). Perhaps instead of just decreasing the time it takes, it should also decrease the cost of repairing/upgrading weapon components?
I bet a talent that gives access to upgrades you wouldn't otherwise see would be very useful in a future version where upgrades are restricted by faction rank and Starport quality.
I think Talents like these probably shouldn't be for rank 1, as it would cause players to recruit Gunners just for a few turns and immediately fire them after using such Talents.

I'm actually a little surprised you think Gunners are not very useful for ship combat, as I often recruit them to use the Targeting Lock Talent. I guess you must prefer to fight at mid-close ranges were you can't make use of it?

[grävling]

I like the Targeting Lock Talent, but +30 Accuracy +15 critical isn't that much better than the Pilot's Guided Fire +20 Accuracy, +10 critical to make me think that kicking a Pilot off the boat to make room for a Gunner is a good idea. So in games where I don't start with a Gunner at all, well, I never get around to hiring one. In games where I do, when it is time to make room for some spies, or diplomats, or whatever else I want from some interesting contact, the Gunner is generally the first one to get the chop.

[athios]

grävling - Wow, we are really thinking along similar lines today. I love your ideas about the Talents that fire after failing a save. I hope this can be worked into the system.

I was just thinking this morning of a Crew Dog Talent that lets them shrug off their own Morale drop after a failed save of any kind.

Ship combat Talent 'Containment Training' that has 5-10% chance to halve damage from crippling ship effects. The effect still lingers, only the damage applied is affected. Individually, this is a weak Talent, but if you have 5+ Crew Dogs who know it, it becomes significant (assuming that the chance to fire can stack this way).

Kind of like what grävling suggested about a new 'First Aid' Talent that may reduce HP damage after a failed Doctor save, I was thinking of something like 'Occupational First Aid' that gives +1 Doctor skill point. Stacks with other Crew Dogs who have this same training, but the collective Doctor skill points from this Talent only applies when there is no actual Doctor on board (or perhaps, cannot go higher than the actual Doctor's Doctor skill). They are meant as a basic level buffer to help in Doctor rolls in case you don't have a Doctor or s/he dies.

e.g. if you have 5 Crew Dogs with this Talent and no Doctor, then your ship has Doctor (5)
e.g. if you have 5 Crew Dogs with this Talent and a Lv10 Doctor with skill 7, then your ship has Doctor (7)

On further thought, this is highly confusing to players and hard to display/keep track of, so not such a good idea.