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Post by contributor on Jan 12, 2014 16:42:53 GMT -5
One of my Vraes is trying out hammers and so far I'm really liking it, especially my two handed 3AP rat smasher. Trying a few others I realized there is a possibly unseen advantage to such a weapon. Since armor soaks damage every turn a big hit weapon is more efficient because it only soak armor twice in a round.
For example: You have a 2AP weapon that averages 20 damage a hit. So in theory you get 60 damage a round Or, you have a 3AP weapon that averages 30 damage a hit. So you get 60 damage a round, same thing right? Not really because your enemies armor soaks an average of 7 points a round. Which means. With your 2AP weapon you end up doing 39 damage because 21 (7+7+7) is soaked by enemy armor. With a 3AP weapon you end up doing 46 damage because only 14 (7+7) is soaked by enemy armor.
A lot have probably already figured this out already, but I thought I would add it to this board.
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Post by slayernz on Jan 12, 2014 16:53:09 GMT -5
You're absolutely right - this is also why dual-wielding builds also have an advantage that can outweigh the loss of an AP.
I've had Vraes have a 3AP weapon + a 1AP light blade, and he was dishing out mega damage first hit, and only slightly reduced damage second hit. The thing was that you were limited in moving because as soon as you did, you only have 1 hit per round. The option was great when you knew multiple enemies were going to surround you though.
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Post by tenbsmith on Jan 12, 2014 18:51:43 GMT -5
Thanks Lurker, I hadn't thought of that and may try 2-handed hammer Vraes at some point. It does seem that Kyera does more damage than Vraes many times.
The damage lost to soak could be offset by a buff like Burning Blades that adds damage with every hit.
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Post by fallen on Jan 12, 2014 21:52:26 GMT -5
Great analysis, thanks for posting!
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Post by contributor on Jan 13, 2014 4:07:29 GMT -5
tenbsmith, it seems like Burning Blades would offset it, but I don't think it adds as much as armor soaks, so in the end it's still more efficient to land a few big hits. My hammers for comparison, are a one hand (2AP, 3Acc, 1Par) hammer that does 20-36 damage and a two handed (3AP, 3Acc, 1Par) hammer that does (36-50) damage. So total ranges for them are 60-108 for the 1-H hammer and 72-100 for the 2 Hander. I'm pretty much always using Burning Blades 4 and with the 1-H I seem to consistently do damage in the mid 20's. The 2 hander does from upper 30's to low 50's, but is pretty consistent around 43-45. I'm definitely getting more overall damage with the 2 Hander even with Burning Blades. Testing was done on Brutal difficulty.
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Post by John Robinson on Jan 13, 2014 11:17:20 GMT -5
contributorWhat you posted about 2H versus 1H has me completely rethinking the way I play, very helpful. I still have to hit them to kill them. There are many ways to raise accuracy, what has worked well for you?
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Post by algesan on Jan 13, 2014 13:03:52 GMT -5
Although the point is valid other considerations come into play.
Greater flexibility in moving & attacking Extra critical chance Higher parry (which we aren't sure exactly how it works) IMO & with my party configuration faster mob killing since at 12th Vraes even with the store spear vs. debuffed somewhat regularly kills with two hits, leaving the last + Kyera to kill another.
Note that against giant rats 2h gets a lot more traction simply because they have insanely high armor / toughness compared to everything else. But kill everything else first then swap to the rats. Heh, one reason I've dropped my Vince party was the fight vs. five rats that took literally over a hour and an arseload of potions to win.
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Post by tenbsmith on Jan 13, 2014 13:24:14 GMT -5
Lurker, I'm convinced. Looking forward to a 2-handed hammering Vraes when I get around to another play-through--probably after more of the new characters are introduced.
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Post by Karjus on Jan 13, 2014 17:20:05 GMT -5
Also found a two handed vraes a lot more effective in general. Sword build wasn't very capable vs heavier targets even with the two hand ones.
Two other builds I've tried went for the store bought two handed spear however and just tore things up.
Sent from my GT-I9100P using proboards
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2014 18:38:26 GMT -5
When early game Vince faces down Giant Rats, don't use Lighting Spear.
Switched to Shocking Strike and a 1AP weapon.
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Swords have higher range of damage, and thus face a greater percentage of fully soaked rolls.
However, swords are very common and have some of the best end game balance possible.
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Parry is the inverse of Accuracy for your characters. Parry is a huge component in the defense of melee attacks, like Accuracy is a huge component in the landing of melee attacks.
A 2H hammer lacks both a shield or off-hand weapon's Parry, and itself is slow and has low Parry. However, it has high minimum damage =)
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Post by tenbsmith on Jan 13, 2014 20:04:46 GMT -5
Vraes was dealing reasonable damage with the Short Sword and Burning Blades in the Boss Fight at the end of Episode 1 on Hard. That
I thought hammers had best offense, spears best defense, and swords were balanced. Is that right?
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Post by fallen on Jan 13, 2014 20:19:04 GMT -5
tenbsmith - best thing is to read the text from Vraes' Skill page when leveling up.
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Post by hollowpoints on Jan 14, 2014 12:50:44 GMT -5
Trying a few others I realized there is a possibly unseen advantage to such a weapon. One other advantage is that 3AP weapons will use less SP each round. If you throw on a 1AP light blade and a shield, and then start slashing away with 'Savage Sweep 2' you are going to use 3 SP each and every time you swing (up to 7 x 3 = 21 SP per round). If that were a 3AP weapon you would only use ( 2 x 3 = 6 SP per round) because you can only swing it twice. Similarly I've found while dual wielding each swing with light blades uses 2x AP but only 1x SP (if that's a bug don't fix it lol). Light blades round looks like (4 x 3 = 12 SP per round) . It's a decent balance but I still find Vraes is always running out of SP. In the future I will either build toward 2AP swords or seriously consider dumping a lot of points into Intelligence. Haven't decided yet.
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Post by fallen on Jan 14, 2014 13:12:30 GMT -5
Smaller AP weapons does mean more hits, more use of your bonuses from your Buffs, and more chance for Critical.
Great discussion everyone!
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 14, 2014 15:32:12 GMT -5
The next layer of complexity is added when additional character variants introduce attacks that both Curse and Damage.
A buff like BB or TB can be more effective on a 2AP weapon, and a Cursing attacking has advantages on both sides as well.
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