Any downside to blockading Independents?

[phantum]

I had been seeing how far I could get just using exploring and the odd mission and trading for faction to get the up-and-coming uber award 'tongue to the ground' (201+ faction each faction). But 10 levels on explorer xp was obviously putting me way behind the line. So I saw a Raptor which looked way cooler than a Javat Cutter, and thought to try get some fast XP blockading independents, expecting to have to run back to spice halls.

With 10 tactics, and less than a dozen weapons, I was getting success 9/10 times getting $250-$1250, and no moral hit so to speak of. I got the odd ship I could easily run from with my upgraded sail to ratio, although I noticed my sails would go down about 1 point every 10-20 blockades. I made more XP in 15 minutes doing this than the previous minutes, and it seemed to be a limitless source of money. Then when I moved to the outer reaches where there are some really stong economy independents, and although under constant blockade I was able to use my profits to buy more illegal goods on these planets and sell to other worlds for faction. It was a lot better than exploring by then, although not as much fun.

Is there no downside to this, it seems to easy. Unless it is further corruption of my database along with the other strange effects I have reported. I thought only pirates could do this to independents.

The second winning strategy I noticed was that my original Aperio with 8 engines but sail upgrades, military architecture +30%+20 crew and the +25 weapons and records upgrades, could was still a fuel hog. However if I stopped at any dangerous world and 'explored' the crew down to about 10, particularly after some sail damage, my fuel economy could drop from 2 in the red to 0.2or less. Since I could still run from any enemies and had all trade permits anyhow, it made sense to kill off all the crew before a long voyage and recruit fresh meat later on. Without this by the time I got the sails damage message the game had already carried me 5 more turns using 2-3 fuel per turn using my supplies.

So tip 2 for explorers if you want bring the mother load home from the ends of the galaxy. Ditch your crew and you are guaranteed to get home on 10 fuel, as long as you are too fast or too well liked to catch.

Anyhow these two things I learned revolutionised my game on crazy using the new elite zones. The trouble is it seems so easy I am wondering if I am exploiting some of the corruption that has infested my installed versions, or strange maths in having a starting ship with outfitted to 10 hull, 31 sails, 8 engines, 52 crew, carrying 105 cargo? Or something like that.

[phantum]

Wow that got way complicated. Summary:

Playing on Crazy: lessons learned or game exploit?
1. get a ship with high engines to escape thy enemies, and get trading permits
2. blockade independents for unlimited cash and XP for pilot/explore skills
3. kill off your crew with an impossible explore mission to improve fuel economy by a factor of 10.

Do this and avoid loosing faction in trade embargo and strangely enough you will be alive with 150+ faction everyone left alive loves you.

[Cory Trese]

Fair question, I'll do some testing and find a way to balance this

[slayernz]

Kay - I've known about both techniques too ... I think there certainly should be some penalty to ship flying/combat when you are down to only a small fraction of crew, but no, you're actually just really fuel efficient. You should lose ship efficiency because the few crew remaining are doing so much more. You should be much less effective in combat (especially if crew remaining < ship engines). In extreme cases, weapons operations should be pretty much out because the crew are so focused on keeping the bucket of bolts that is your ship together.

For blockades of independents, it's even more interesting that when you have moderate sail damage, you just have to land in the independent urban area and get your sails repaired at the dock. You can also refuel at their exchange before going back into orbit and blockading chaotically again. It's kind of not right.

At least the independents could send a couple of Jedi knights to negotiate the cession of the blockade. At worst, they should ban you from their facilities for splurt number of turns (where "splurt" is equal to the number of turns consecutively blockaded by you). Actually, "splurt" could be a good variable to track the total number of injuries you receive through your lifetime as captain, but that's a different thread.

[koles]

playing pure merchant with Merchant class after 100 years also put you far far away behind encountered ships

in Star Traders its easy to gain exp with doing contracts (quests) and fighting but game almost forget about non-fighting characters.

edit:
i rarely play fighting characters so i also use this blockade exploit with my merchant and expolorer captains. its the only way to stay 'in line' with enemy captains or aliens, and for my explorers - its the only way to get higth enought explorer skill to survive expedition on surface without loosing 90% of crew

in real rpg we have balanced characters. fighters defeat enemies with weapons, charismatic characters defeat them with speach or by many friends/mercenaries who fight instead of them.

in ST we have wealthy merchants who flight on slow big ships unable to fight agains aliens. problem is they cant hire good mercenaries or security.
of course they can buy upgrades to better avoid encounters and buy fastest ships - but is this way that should live merchants? this is smugglers way not merchants

[Cory Trese]

"in real rpg"

[koles]

Oh, so maybe that: "in good and well balanced rpg"

[Cory Trese]

koles -- thanks for the feedback. we are always working to make a better RPG out of what we have.

one thing I would point out is that the level of the enemy ships is directly related to your level. So saying "playing pure merchant with Merchant class after 100 years also put you far far away behind encountered ships" is not accurate in Star Traders RPG.

The concept of staying "in line" is a falsehood. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I actually disagree with most of your post.

Senior forum members -- any thoughts on these topics?

[Cory Trese]

Maybe it isn't that I disagree, it is just that I do not understand what you are saying.

Can you help me understand what parts of the various play modes you find unbalanced?

I am more than happy to talk about it...

[slayernz]

I've started this response a number of times ... each with a positive and negative stance. However, each time it drifted a little off the specific questions raised above. Now note the questions I have posed below are not 100% based on Kole's thread, so Kole, please don't think I am misquoting you or trying to make you say things that you haven't. The questions I have raised are based on extensions on your post:


1) Does playing a single class style (eg merchant) puts you behind the game's XP curve?
Yes and no. To start with, you do have to do a few contracts in order to get enough RP to gain some trade permits. However, if you aren't striving for the perfect contract awards, then it doesn't matter how many contracts you reject and you can always contract against independents.

Once you've got permits with most/all factions, you're actually about 80% there - because you no longer have hostile encounters from those factions and it makes your life relatively easy. As soon as you can, get a decent ship that can out-run a typical pirate and you're then able to focus purely on doing the trade thing. So in 100 years, you'll probably have done maybe 10 - 20 contracts, and spent the rest of the time trading based on shortage rumors.

Yes you can build up XP this way and yes you are able to keep abreast of the game's difficulty curve. Is it enough to cope with alien encounters? If you put some energy into pilot + stealth and you invested in a decently engined ship, then perhaps. But in saying that, Aliens are challenging, even if you have done the combat approach

One of the reasons for this is (a) your crew doesn't gain/add to your experience. At least I don't see there is any benefit to having seasoned crew on your ship. They still die as frequently don't improve chances whether it is in exploration or in combat.

So that's one change I'd like to see. Crew getting some XP of their own based on their length of tenure. That means they should resist dying during explorations, and potentially even become specialized explorers themselves helping you find more than you otherwise would have.

It's a big change to the game engine though, so could be an impossible pipe dream.

2) Is the game focused on XP gained doing contracts and fighting rather than on trading?
Again yes and no. You can definitely get XP even if you don't do lots of contracts, fighting or even blockades and the like. I've had captains that have only had a small handful of hostile encounters in multi-hundreds of years. They still get lots of XP because of red-sector travel, doing good trades, and all that merchant type stuff.

The biggest pain in not doing lots of contracts and fighting is that crew morale continually drops over time and the best you can do in spice halls is get them to 7 out of 10. So enhancement #2 would be to get crew to be higher morale doing things successfully - be it a successful explore/harvest ora successful trade. Crew morale increases shouldn't be limited to combat and contract success.


3) Is the only way to gain enough Explore skill possible by taking advantage of some game loopholes (eg Blockade XP)?
As an explorer, you start off with 6, and that's actually pretty good for some of the easier planets (eg Javat Mining). You get XP for successful explorations as well as trading, so you can feed this back to your Explore skill. Crew deaths are an unfortunate part of the process though and you do end up churning through lots of folk to make your money. Kind of rough but given there is no workplace occupational health and safety commission in this galaxy, it's somewhat acceptable.

Having crew get some sort of experience benefit (see #1) would certainly help. Exploring a planet with a bunch of experienced crew should be multiples better over green crew in terms of survival rate and yield. With veteran crew, you should be able to keep loses to fewer than the fingers on one hand. Of course some captains have genetically grown additional digits, but that's just cheating in my books.


4) Are there some inherent limitations in the game that don't give you as much "reality" as other RPG's?
Yes. Absolutely. However, this is because of a couple of factors. First up, this is a first game so some of the limitations of the game stemmed from the fact that it was written without as much experience or end-user feedback than say CK. In addition to that, it's limited by the fact that it's constrained by size and the fact it's an app on a mobile device rather than a full PC game.

There is so much that could be added to a STRPG type game - but that would require probably a full rewrite from the ground up. You can't get some radical changes in incremental builds (eg 3d game play ... yes Taatuu that's your dream feature ).

Does the game play become a little monotonous at times? I guess so. I've gotten used to a certain pattern of play and have found there is substantial repetition. It would be nice to add additional aspects, especially things like an arching story line, a fleet of ships (mixing cargo + combat ships), or more diverse contract types. Having more things to do in the game would be fantastic. These types of enhancements are not implemented (yet) ... but I've still been playing this confounded game for over 7 months now and am still finding myself drawn to the game when I have some spare downtime. So yes, it's a little repetitive, but not so much that I've gotten bored and given up with the thing.

One strong aspect of me hanging around is the fact that Cory's been so responsive to requests and feedback. If there's been a way for him to implement something he will. If it is too hard, he at least captures the feedback for sometime in the future when it is possible. I've worked with software engineers for the last 10 years or so, and none of them are as passionate as Cory is.


DO I think I've got another 7 months worth of gaming in STRPG ahead of me? Probably not - but even 7 months of playing one game over every other game on my phone (or even PC) is pretty impressive for me all the same. I haven't played one game so solidly since Doom 2, then Total Annihilation. Oh ... Transport Tycoon Deluxe still draws me in (open TTD is awesome on the PC). Still, STRPG is up there in terms of longevity with some of the better strategy games.


Again I think I've probably strayed away from the original questions, but I've tried my hardest as it is an important topic.

[Cory Trese]

Trade Permits For All Factions
-----------------------------------
This costs you a lot of XP. No hostile encounters means no XP. Wining and escaping have very similar XP results in Red Zones. Keep in mind that the game is designed to include a "my friends" and "my enemies" division in the Factions.

If you choose to seek an advantage of maintaining friendly relations with both House and Syndicate, do not expect to have a fair shake of the XP as a Spacing Captain. You're not Spacing -- you're waving around a Trade Permit and drinking coffee on the bridge.

Crew Experience
--------------------
Crew XP, Ranks and "Line Officers" will play a major roll in upcoming Trese Brothers titles.

You'll see everything from "Senior Crewman" to Officer Promotions. Games like Templar Assault and ST RPG II will be very careful to fold this type of feedback into the design.

Trade XP / Morale
---------------------
This is an excellent response to the question that is asked "What is the bonus for ending a Shortage?" The XP bonus is already fairly large, but I will investigate increasing it and adding a Morale Boost for Merchants and Smuggler Captains...thoughts?

I am also testing a package of additional Merchant XP bonuses related to Trading restricted goods with independent...

Blockade XP
--------------
This no doubt requires some balancing work. Several people have brought it up in private and now it is being publicly questioned. The amount of XP granted from blockade is achieved in a strange way (it is somewhat indirect) and therefore I have been cautious to make too many adjustments.

Explorers
-----------
While I am a bad example, it is very possible to reach Level 50 on Exploration, Harvesting and Trading -- without blockading.

People who say "Explorer Taps Out" are probably ignoring Harvesting as an option. While Exploration will eventually exhaust the number of Narvidian Artifacts Harvesting can provide an Explorer a long term solution and a useful mix of XP and lower value trade goods. No, the return in credits will not be as large but the balance (in terms of Crew death and XP) is intended to balance that out.


And in closing ... Thank you, SlayerNZ. What a post, made my day and sent me back into the development code with a smile on my face and song in my heart.

Who wants cyberware upgrades? Yah!

[slayernz]

I'm glad you found the post helpful ... you did ask for feedback after all.

I'm a bit bummed that you miss out on XP opportunities by being diplomatic and having working non-combatively with all factions. I would have hoped that the XP gained from trading between factions should offset the XP lost from the combat opportunities missed.

You should get more XP from trades between factions than trades intra-faction. Also, you should get more XP trading between syndicates and noble houses. You've still gotta make a living after all. Merchants shouldn't be required to kill for a living - or kill to increase their abilities

There is still lots to do than just fly around drinking cups of coffee on the bridge. There's selecting the right beans. Training your crew how to barista a nice cup with good crema, and don't forget those trade permits need to be taken care of. Waving them around a lot does quite a bit of damage to the paper.

[Cory Trese]

The player elects to choose Credits and Reduced Risk over Rapid Progress.

I think that is a fair trade off for the "cautious player" seeks when accumulating trade permits of every Faction? They might be able to gain XP via trading but that wouldn't necessarily be supported by the game.

In Star Traders RPG 2 the division between the Houses and Syndicates will be such that only a true pirate will work both sides -- and in that case, no one will trust them (but it will have other advantages too.)

I think we really missed developing and taking advantage of that conflict in the game world, but ST RPG is a chance to do better =)

[slayernz]

Kay - my next captain's gonna go Thulun hunting

[phantum]

Some very interesting posts, I had not realised this would bring up so many issues. I was mainly curious at first if the behaviours on blockade and 'feed crew to aliens for fuel economy' were in the game, or due to some corruption in my game database which is causing some other oddities. Blockade seemed too good to be true, in that it seemed so exceptionally easy for no risk, compared to almost all other parts of the game, and it was not increasing in difficulty like other things in the game.

So it seems like my game is working the same as everyone else here.

I do feel XP and level is often the main measure of success in the game, after you have the ship of your dreams, and no money problems. And I find explorer very slow to get XP, and would prefer to be able to use that as my main XP gain playing explorer class. It feels like there is substantial risk later in the game with explorer, but hardly any XP even for success on very challenging worlds. Then I found I could get unlimited XP with my eyes closed blockading for no risk.

Cory, it was an interesting comment about harvesting, I had thought that completely separate from Explore and the explorer class. Does the explore skill and the officer/equipment bonus work there too? Does that give you more XP?

If blockade deliberately left as a no fail way to catch up XP for explorers and cash for fighters then ok. I guess it is up to the players as spending your entire 50 levels blockading this way is not going to give most of us a satisfying game. The diversity of the classes and way to play the game adds lots of enjoyment, blockade could be a tool to try.

It is an interesting comment that playing a fighter class versus a trader is a trade off between getting XP or money rewards. The trouble I find with money for merchant/explorer classes is that very quickly you end up with nothing to spend it on, it just sits there. Fighter classes can easily get there too by following a few trade rumours. I have not noticed anything about merchant like activities in the score card either.

I do not really think anything is wrong with how it is, but one of the things with these forums is to all contribute ideas for developing the game so here are a few.

1. Blockade is ok, but still seems to be too easy and not get harder like other aspects of the game. Maybe the success rate could be tuned down. With 9 skill there I had a 95% success rate, compared with success using other skills that had 20+. Maybe success could depend on ship stats so I can't intimidate people in my escape pod!
2. Other aspects of the game have a risk of more serious consequences, like ram in combat, explorer wipe-out. Should there be some more serious consequence for explore, like a risk you get banned from the planet, or the planetary police force arrests you when you land and throws you in prison?
3. How about a moral hit for operations against non independents, that would slow down traders from doing this, compared with the fighter classes that are better suited to blockade?
4. I would like to see a bit more XP for exploring more dangerous areas, for the explorer class. Enough so I can get comparable XP that way to blocade. Or some alternative ...

5. If money is to remain the major reward for trader/explore class, could the players wealth be factored into the game universe in some way as a status. Money brings contacts, respect, power, influence etc. (but not happiness). For example could net worth influence Charisma like a bonus, or encounters, or reputation? To stop this getting out of hand with exponential increases in wealth, wealth could also impact prices paid for non trade items like ships, (you pay more to get a luxury version, or maybe better quality that does not break down as much?) pardons, etc. Or planet side encounter kidnap where you have to pay to get released...

Anyhow I hope those ideas find some interest for further discussion. I don't think any of the issues were particularly serious or anything like the RPG being way out of balance, it works fine and is very enjoyable for most of us as it is. I don't think I will get much time to play in the next couple of weeks anyhow (I have written more on this post today than my thesis, the world stockmarkets are in chaos, and darling wife is back from her month sailing Greek islands )

Captain IceyDoctor

PS who is Kay?