|
|
Post by hlo on May 29, 2015 20:36:37 GMT -5
I've been playing on hard in year 13, using a heavy transport with the Advanced Duranium Hull, 42 armor, well over 400 hull points, destroyed 100% of the time on a scout or bombard action. I hear you!!! I think a kamikaze fleet of invasion transports is needed now. Just to build such a fleet requires a mid game economy that ears at least $2K per turn. Not to mention the swarms of enemy ships that appear out of no where to defend the system. Offensive action now is nearly zero for me in Garden. I just feel happy that I have built my neutral zone before this 2.2.17 patch, a feat that will not happen again unless I play Normal or lower. I expect this kind of survival rate if I play Impossible. However I am only playing Hard. |
|
|
|
Post by Brutus Aurelius on May 29, 2015 20:45:45 GMT -5
Kamikaze fleets will wreck your economy by smashing Morale.
|
|
|
|
Post by hlo on May 29, 2015 21:09:50 GMT -5
Kamikaze fleets will wreck your economy by smashing Morale. I am in "holding pattern" right now waiting for supposedly "Un-Nerfing" of the invasion logic as mentioned by Cory few replied back. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on May 30, 2015 10:26:41 GMT -5
Patch is incoming today
|
|
|
|
Post by dashit on May 30, 2015 17:17:47 GMT -5
Is there any where on the forum we can find info on balancing the military transport ships to be effective. I am struggling to find how to balance these ships out to be effective. While I get that dumping points all in one skill is not effective and your combat order should be critical there is also zero info out there I can find on what stats effect what actions. It also boggles my mind that the stock military transport is completely useless regardless of what order I use scout/bombard/invade. They all blow up in a single turn. Just looking for some info versus hours of trial and error to finish a game. |
|
|
|
Post by hlo on May 30, 2015 17:19:04 GMT -5
Great!  Since last patch, Hard is "beyond Hard" for me. You throw 20 transports in waves to do the scout - invade/bombard thing against a full blown pop 20 quality 15 system, most likely none will survive and you need to build another couple waves hoping to finish the job. That is assuming you don't get endless harassment from other ships. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on May 30, 2015 20:50:32 GMT -5
Is there any where on the forum we can find info on balancing the military transport ships to be effective. I am struggling to find how to balance these ships out to be effective. While I get that dumping points all in one skill is not effective and your combat order should be critical there is also zero info out there I can find on what stats effect what actions. It also boggles my mind that the stock military transport is completely useless regardless of what order I use scout/bombard/invade. They all blow up in a single turn. Just looking for some info versus hours of trial and error to finish a game. Sounds like you started your first invasion efforts during a buggy period for the game. Sorry about that. Please try with a previous release or with the next update. There are a dozen or so ways to build effective invasion ships -- this latest patch definitely narrowed it down. I went too far, made it too hard -- it might be fun for some and even if I enjoy it have to be honest -- the game is not for me, it is for you! So I'm going to put it mostly back to how it was and we can restart the discussion from there! |
|
|
|
Post by dashit on May 31, 2015 2:52:31 GMT -5
Been playing most of the evening and had some better success with some combos. The one thing I noticed is with the current setup you almost have to do the invasions one at a time. Similar to how the rest of the ship combat goes. I may need to scout the planet (usually if I see ? ? ? In the defense column, which comes and goes even if I have been hammering on the planet for a bit) but sometimes after the scouting I can invade for a few turns in a row. The problem seems to arise when this scouting effort "wears off" which is usually in the middle of a round of fighting. Then I end up losing a couple ships. If there was some way to indicate what tactic would be needed it would better aid us in making choices between scout/bomb/invade. Similar to how you and which ships you may use to attack xeno ships. Currently invasion is not a very interactive feature of the game. What also would help is more documentation on game mechanics. Don't have to tell us all the secrets but a basic road map would be nice.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on May 31, 2015 9:03:02 GMT -5
I would love to have the time to spend on producing detailed help documentation on the game mechanics! I will keep my fingers crossed on that, and keep updating the help file every release in an effort to provide more and more detailed and in-depth game mechanics. Obviously with one person and no budget it can be hard! It really sounds like you're making progress learning the new (temporary) rules. You've definitely hit a key element, breaking down the Xeno defenses from ? ? ? to under 20. Based on different player feedback, I could take away different evaluations of the invasion system. Definitely a mixed bag -- people don't like it as much as ST RPG combat -- but they are very, very similar mathematically. I think one thing that is unique to 4X invasion is the infrequence of action and reaction -- giving the player many less overall attempts to play the minigame, and thus with fewer attempts comes less understanding and assumptions that it is completely random. This in turn leads to frustration. Fixing these exact issues was why I re-wrote the invasion code to have a more narrow correct path. That the system, and the aids for the players, would be easier, faster and cheaper to produce. As you can see from this thread and hlo's other posts, the dream has yielded a disaster for many players. The one-star reviews are piling up! The people who like the change cannot offset those that don't, so we are rolling it back. This does mean that we're exploding back from 2 strong mechanics to around 8 interrelated ones, which means much more complex strategy evaluation, aids for players and more expensive documentation. It is interesting -- since the current engine allows so many different competing strategies ... removing a popular one causes major complaining and game damage. But we have to remove some to be able to accommodate the players who want simple red-light / green-light style advice. Game design ... isn't it fun? =) |
|
|
|
Post by tenbsmith on May 31, 2015 9:38:39 GMT -5
Thanks Cory Trese, that last post was a very interesting read and gives insight into the competing demands you're trying to meet. When you're ready, it might be useful for someone to start a mechanics of invasion thread, sort of like the combat mechanics thread on the HoS board. |
|
|
|
Post by dashit on May 31, 2015 9:54:18 GMT -5
Thanks Cory Trese, that last post was a very interesting read and gives insight into the competing demands you're trying to meet. When you're ready, it might be useful for someone to start a mechanics of invasion thread, sort of like the combat mechanics thread on the HoS board. Cory awesome stuff. One of the draws for many of us, at least myself, to your games is the detailed mechanics and mathematical nature of those mechanics. People that want to play simple red light green light button smash games can play candy crush. Don't miss construe our comments as you having developed the game poorly. I think you took a big step in the game and that left us in the dust trying to catch up. I do think some more participation on the forums could lead to more info for game mechanics and make things easier. We don't need to know all of the mechanics but a basic road map and correlations would be nice. Keep up the good work. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on May 31, 2015 9:59:53 GMT -5
I do appreciate the encouragement.
In this case, the change was bad. Too extreme.
I'm still testing the patch, wanted to get it out yesterday but just couldn't convince myself it was ready.
I need to do more about documenting the mechanics, in the help file and on the forum.
Recently BF and company stuff have had me slammed, to the point where my forum time for 4X has been lacking.
That's not an excuse for the bad patch -- that was just a misfire in the design thinking. The failure to post the missing detailed explanations on mechanics ... that's just a timing issue.
We'll get there =)
|
|
|
|
Post by hlo on May 31, 2015 14:11:52 GMT -5
You almost want to have a few checkboxes in an option screen to allow people different settings. Say regular invasion vs enhanced invasion. Or you can put in the new logic for Crazy and Impossible where the extremists go. If we are to keep the enhanced invasion logic, then the boiler plate Military Transport needs to be redesigned so there are usable out of the box.
The traditional classic of 4X allows different types of gameplay to achieve the final victory. I understand we are missing (yet to define) certain win conditions like scientific or economic victory. Then there are more reasons to roll back the 2.2.17 changes with respect to invasion or at least allow an option to turn it off.
I think certain parts of the 2.2.15 for xeno logic at high level are faulty. I see level 45 xenos, some are way more active than others.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on May 31, 2015 16:06:26 GMT -5
hlo -- very easy to say "I think the logic is faulty" ... I love to discuss the AI, but broad generalizations don't do much for me. Of course you see Level 45 Xenos with various activity levels -- I would expect even within the same map, the same difficulty, the same Xeno AI species to STILL see variations in activity levels. If there wasn't variation in how active they are under the simulator, the release probably fails regression testing. To be realistic about the situation, 4X simply cannot afford to have multiple completely different rules turned on an off with a checkbox. It's a solution that, given an bigger budget, would probably make for a very interesting set of possibilities. I would be a great custom difficulty setting as well, possibly many of the game's rules could be turned on and off. ST 4X II perhaps, with a Kickstarter to fund the design. The traditional classic 4X allows for endless different types of gameplay and no set victory point -- instead the player defines that moment. Victory conditions, like the ones you mentioned, are a great additional feature that some designers include. I hope that we can afford to add more of them to 4X soon!
|
|
Since last patch, Hard is "beyond Hard" for me. You throw 20 transports in waves to do the scout - invade/bombard thing against a full blown pop 20 quality 15 system, most likely none will survive and you need to build another couple waves hoping to finish the job. That is assuming you don't get endless harassment from other ships.
