Punchingbag Ship, Recon in Force, Defeat in Detail & Xeno AI

[tenbsmith]

This thread was retitled to reflect the broader discussion that evolved. The unaltered first post below the line reflects the original title "The Shield Fighter: A defensively oriented ship" (i.e., a punching bag ship).  The other topics emerge in later posts.

______________________________


This concept and the specific design are untested, and may not work as I intend. Feedback is welcome.

The Concept: A low-cost fighter that is very difficult for Xeno to hit.

The primary purpose: The Shield Fighter is positioned aggressively to draw Xeno fire. Since it is hard to hit, this should decrease damage received, which in turn improves fleet durability. More expensive attack ships can stay on the front line longer.

Other uses: A picket posted between settled systems and Xeno to guard against surprise attack. Blocking World Killers and Xeno Colony ships.

Design for Shield-I (to be built around year 4-5)
--Level 3 (Improves durability at low cost)
--Fast Reactor 3 (4mp, supports sufficient mass for Level 3).
--Valiant Autocannon (lowest cp/cost/maint gun, good defense bonus)
--Phoenix Defense Pod (+1 Defense, 0cp, $2/turn)
--No armor (it’s too expensive)
--Training: Barrage, Precision Barrage (+3 gun attack), Scan 1
--Ship: Durability 8, Guns 1, Shielding 5, Evasion 11 (core function), Sensor 1
--Captain: Guns 3, Pilot 3, Stealth 2, Repair 5
Build for 22cp + $112; Maint $35
Important design elements:
----Valiant Autocannon for good defense bonus and low cp/cost/maint.
----Improved durability with Level 3, which is less expensive than armor
----Precision Barrage to somewhat compensate for poor attack stats

I plan to build a fighter along these lines soon.

[elwoodps]

This is a concept that definitely works.  Here's a later game variation on this theme that I've used for a while, and it works like a champ.





And here's a shot of one in action covering this Strike Group's retreat toward my fuel & repair base at the top of the screen, following a Reconnaissance-in-Force deep into Jyeeta space. 



When the group gets close enough to the to the base, the Punching Bag will stop and the Xenos converge and attack it. Then Strike Group (a mix of strike and attack fighters), with the help of the base defenders will turn and destroy them, suffering little or no damage in the process.   And they'll usually be followed by a string of additional Mass Driver & Missile ships (whatever the xeno can muster on short notice), that arrive in twos & threes, and are easily dealt with. "Defeat in detail" is the military term for this.

I'll launch a RiF whenever I get the "Reduced xeno activity message".  At first the Xeno will retreat before the Strike Group; on this particular Recon, the Strike Group was able to destroy a half-dozen stragglers on the way in.

A RiF during a period of reduced xeno activity is a tremendously powerful tactic.  It allows you to weaken them while they're trying to mass for their next attack, and eventually goads them into counter-attacking before they're ready.  Then you lead them back to a prepared ambush. It's unnecessary to have a Shield or Punching Bag type fighter to carry one out, but having one makes the maneuver far safer. Particularly when the Xeno has ships faster than your's (in my current game, the Sidtax have 6mp Mass Driver ships).

Edit:

Regarding the use of Precision Strike, I'd prefer my Punching Bags to be unable to hit anything at all. It works like this:

When I single out a Mass Driver ship, the Punching Bag attacks first and (hopefully) misses, which always draws a counterattack, that almost always misses due to the Punching Bag's high Evasion and Defense.  Now the Mass Driver ship has shot it's wad, and my Attack and Strike fighters (which do the real execution) can attack it with impunity.

[khamya9]

Year 4-5? Wow, thats surprisingly late. do you only play on huge maps? My games are often decided by then, (even if I haven't wiped all the xeno worlds or hit an economic death spiral, the outcome is already clear and set in stone).

I'm surprised you wait so long for these, they seem like they'd be very useful earlier.

Its an interesting design, I did something similar with a cheaper level 2 ship (I got the maintenance down to 27/turn if I remember correctly) many patches ago and exploited the ai with them by parking one in each of the 8 squares around every xeno world rendering them helpless. Thankfully Cory fixed that, it was a really cheesy strategy I'm mildly embarrassed I developed. But I still love high defense ship designs.

[tenbsmith]

Great post @elwoodsps. I use similar tactics, including scouting enemy territory and picking off stragglers. But the example you provided is really helpful for advancing my approach. I also like the military terminology. Defeat in detail is my favorite.

I am playing a fairly large map (maybe 100x100) with scarce resources, and two types of Xeno. Difficulty = hard. I think it would be difficult to won on this mail before year 5, but manage to get hopelessly behind by year 5 or so the first
time I played it.

[Cory Trese]

This is the best part of the post:

"It allows you to weaken them while they're trying to mass for their next attack, and eventually goads them into counter-attacking before they're ready."

and tells a lot about a deeper understanding of the AI's strategic approach.

* * *

I'm afraid I should probably nerf this strategy -- it does not sound fun for the average player. It feels like an exploit.

A real military would never use this tactic, because the enemy would adapt.

Two solutions -- modify the AI code to detect and work around this strategy. Not easy.

Second solution -- detect this type of wildly imbalanced ship design and prevent it, or multiply the maintenance by 10x so to render it practically unusable.

[Brutus Aurelius]

Cory Trese

Perhaps make it so that Alien ships attack enemy ships in their territory, even if it is a "resting phase"? Their territory could be defined as within 10 AU of their Systems.

[Cory Trese]

Jun 9, 2015 20:16:44 GMT -5 Brutus Aurelius said:

Cory Trese

Perhaps make it so that Alien ships attack enemy ships in their territory, even if it is a "resting phase"? Their territory could be defined as within 10 AU of their Systems.

I don't think that's the issue. The AI does not want to fight at that point -- he's building up his reserves and ships to attack you.

If you invade him, or kill off a ship he's really in love with ... then war. But until then, he wants to avoid you.

The problem isn't the strategic AI, it's the tactical one. It's fighting the wrong ship and ignoring the real threat.

[elwoodps]

Jun 9, 2015 19:13:35 GMT -5 khamya9 said:

Year 4-5? Wow, thats surprisingly late. do you only play on huge maps? My games are often decided by then, (even if I haven't wiped all the xeno worlds or hit an economic death spiral, the outcome is already clear and set in stone).

I'm surprised you wait so long for these, they seem like they'd be very useful earlier.....

This is my first game on the 100x100, 93 world map ( hard against 2 Xenos).   My goal when I started this particular game was to unlock all the fun techs in the ship side of the Tech Tree, that I didn't get to on previous smaller-map games, with plenty of Xeno still left to kill.  And because tend to micro-manage, I play embarrassingly slow.....   

Anyway, the idea didn't occur to me until late in the game, or I would have built it earlier. (where's the blushing smiley when I need it).

[elwoodps]

Jun 9, 2015 19:46:56 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

Great post @elwoodsps. I use similar tactics, including scouting enemy territory and picking off stragglers. But the example you provided is really helpful for advancing my approach. I also like the military terminology. Defeat in detail is my favorite.

I am playing a fairly large map (maybe 100x100) with scarce resources, and two types of Xeno. Difficulty = hard. I think it would be difficult to won on this mail before year 5, but manage to get hopelessly behind by year 5 or so the first
time I played it.

Funny, looks like we may have picked the same map. Definitely the same difficulty and number of Xenos.

[khamya9]

Jun 9, 2015 20:23:22 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Jun 9, 2015 20:16:44 GMT -5 Brutus Aurelius said:

Cory Trese

Perhaps make it so that Alien ships attack enemy ships in their territory, even if it is a "resting phase"? Their territory could be defined as within 10 AU of their Systems.

I don't think that's the issue. The AI does not want to fight at that point -- he's building up his reserves and ships to attack you.

If you invade him, or kill off a ship he's really in love with ... then war. But until then, he wants to avoid you.

The problem isn't the strategic AI, it's the tactical one. It's fighting the wrong ship and ignoring the real threat.

I notice this a lot in the ai prioritization of attacks. They don't maneuver for advantage they stay put and shoot. They don't concentrate fire to ensure kills, they spread out attacks. They don't go after squishy support ships or high damage dealers (glass cannons) they plink away on the closest enemy even if its super resilient.

[elwoodps]

Jun 9, 2015 20:12:24 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

........

I'm afraid I should probably nerf this strategy -- it does not sound fun for the average player. It feels like an exploit....

Cory Trese: I agree.

I can live without a Punching Bag type of ship.

I enjoy figuring out my own, new ways of doing things. Designing the ship and honing the tactics for using it, was far more fun than it's routine use...

[tenbsmith]

I too agree with Cory Trese that the Recon in Force (RiF) and Defeat in Detail (DiD) strategy should be nerfed a bit. But, getting rid of punching bag ships will NOT have much effect on the utility of RiF and DiD. I've used those tactics successfully without punching bag ships. RiF and DiD are legitimate tactics used by real world military. TBs don't need to do away with them altogether, just make the Xeno respond more adaptively. The best way to nerf those tactics seems to be an improved Xeno AI.

In particular, I think the Xeno passivity during their building phase needs to be changed. I've just spent three turns torping a Nyktos gunship on the edge of Xeno space and it has not moved. It should either attack or retreat after being hit once.

As Brutus suggested, incursions into Xeno space might trigger attacks. Perhaps the first ship to be attacked retreats, but if 2-3 ships are attacked, the Xeno rally at some point and then attack en masse until intruders leave. Then Xeno return to building. Having the Xeno rally and attack en masse is key to making RiF and DiD less attractive.

Khamya9's suggestions about Xeno target selection are good, but seem separate from RiF and DiD. The TBs did stuff with AI target selection in Heroes of Steel.

elwoodps, I think you're right about the map. We also share a slow, micro-managing style of play. I started this map over a week ago.

Thank you Cory Trese, I love discussions of AI, very interesting.

[khamya9]

Jun 9, 2015 18:23:23 GMT -5 elwoodps said:

Regarding the use of Precision Strike, I'd prefer my Punching Bags to be unable to hit anything at all. It works like this:

When I single out a Mass Driver ship, the Punching Bag attacks first and (hopefully) misses, which always draws a counterattack, that almost always misses due to the Punching Bag's high Evasion and Defense.  Now the Mass Driver ship has shot it's wad, and my Attack and Strike fighters (which do the real execution) can attack it with impunity.

I forgot to comment on this bit. You can slot two attacks on one ship. You always counter attack with the one in "training one". So put barrage there so your ships miss the way you want them to.

But put precision or heavy in training two, so your second or additional punching bags can hit once you have gotten ithe ai to miss on the first one.

This way it is an option you can use when you wish, and doesn't interfere with you preferred tactic.

[khamya9]

Jun 10, 2015 9:37:41 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

In particular, I think the Xeno passivity during their building phase needs to be changed. I've just spent three turns torping a Nyktos gunship on the edge of Xeno space and it has not moved. It should either attack or retreat after being hit once.

As Brutus suggested, incursions into Xeno space might trigger attacks. Perhaps the first ship to be attacked retreats, but if 2-3 ships are attacked, the Xeno rally at some point and then attack en masse until intruders leave. Then Xeno return to building. Having the Xeno rally and attack en masse is key to making RiF and DiD less attractive.

My comments are directly related to the tactic. If the ai recognizes a low offense high defense ship as a lower threat than a high offense low defense ship and swings past the decoy to concentrate fire on your real warships, then they have a viable tactic to fight back with. Similarly if they kill your repair and refuel ships, and "maneuver for advantage" meaning fight you outside green squares, they can attrition you down over time even if you maintain a superior kill rate.

That said, the highest limit the ai has is that it isn't aggressive enough in its aggressive cycle. Specifically it seems to hold back too many ships. Retriggering the aggressive cycle due to attacks or having one or two ships fight back by themselves during passive are both weak tactically and suicidal strategically. The ai just needs better herd mentality.

It  eems to attack in small groups, but when I get the attention of say 11 xeno ships with one forward a scout, and pull back, only four or five keep going, the rest just stop and sit still. So I can easily slaughter those four or five, but 11 would have been a tougher fight.

Similarly, my current game, I got to a point where the ai could never recover or win on turn 310. I won't actually get a victory screen until close to turn 600, but it is game over already. If the ai would attack me with every ship it has built, or even half of them, it would have a chance. But instead it spent from 300 to 360 sending ships in batched of 3 to 6 at a time. This has resulted in me grinding down all!his reserves anyway, gaining over 40 exp across my fleet, and losing nothing.

Bigger herds solves both. In aggressive mode let the herds come together aggressively and across more territory. In passive make them need more and closer bunched up, but still gather then attack with concentrated fire you get kills, not just push five player controlled ships each t6o 50% when they could have two or three dead and two unharmed.

[elwoodps]

Jun 12, 2015 17:25:14 GMT -5 khamya9 said:

I forgot to comment on this bit. You can slot two attacks on one ship. You always counter attack with the one in "training one". So put barrage there so your ships miss the way you want them to.

But put precision or heavy in training two, so your second or additional punching bags can hit once you have gotten ithe ai to miss on the first one.

This way it is an option you can use when you wish, and doesn't interfere with you preferred tactic.

I put two attack trainings on all my other gunships (Barrage + Heavy _ , usually), but I'd never use a second attack training on this one.  The gun I mount is pitiful, even with Heavy Barrage, and with only 1 point in Guns and 0 in Gun Decks the chance of landing a hit is small, even with PB3.  Also, this is the one ship where I use a 1ap/4mp reactor, gladly trading the second shot for more mass that gets dedicated to armor and close-in-defense.

Edit:

Jun 12, 2015 17:25:14 GMT -5 khamya9 said:

... You always counter attack with the one in "training one". So put barrage there.....

I'm a little slow sometimes, and just realized the significance of this tip. 

From now on, I'll make sure that all of my ships that mount a gun, have Barrage in training 1.  That way they won't unintentionally waste needed fuel on counterattacks, and they'll still be able to counterattack when out of fuel.

+1 for the great tip, and many thanks.