Could somebody help me with the numbers? (economy)

[euphorion]

Hello,

I'm just trying to understand the economic numbers a bit better, as they don't always seem to make sense to me. So I'm just trying to recalculate the game values in order to understand it better.

Luckily it's very early game, so there's not too many numbers, but still - here's the raw data:

3 Colonies:

Thulun: $+98/-52, CP3, TP0, RP4 (because of idle), Spy1, 3 Population, 6 Minerals
Javat: $+53/-40, CP3, TP0; RP2, Spy1, 3 Population, 3 Minerals 
Valtos: $ +54/-32, CP3, TP3, RP2, Spy1, 3 Population, 1 Mineral

Trade Route between Valtos and Javat

Empire Summary:
Treasury:
World economies turn out a total revenue of $340
Profit after dues and maintenance: $134
Colonies of the Empire:
3 colonies, 9 Population and 12 Housing units
Colony Status:
Morale: 10
Maintenance rate: 84%
Maintenance cost $127 (at 100% would cost $155) -> Well 127/155 gets me to a maintenance rate of 82%, but nvm....
Fleet:
Maintenance Rate: 88%
Maintenance cost: $79 (at 100% would cost $89)
Construction:
9 CPs are dedicated to upgrades, 3 are idIe CP (note: the 3 CPs must have been at Thulun as it was the only world which completed a project)
Minining and Trade:
Mines exploit 10 Minerals
Trade and Exchanged generate 2 TP

First looking at the Maintenance numbers:

Fleet 79+Buildings127 = a total of 206

Issues/Problems I got:

1. Now, I just am going to take the Fleet maintenance number as it is, but strangly the Colony maintenance/expense values (52+40+32=124) don't fully match the 127, but it's close enough - might be rounding after all ;-)

2. Total Revenue is listed at $340.

So let's try to recalculate that number:

9 populationx14Cr = $126

2 TP x 21 = $42 (base value 15 + 3 Valtos Bonus + 3 Trade route Bonus)

7 Minerals (T+V) x 21  = $147

3 Minerals (Javat) x 25 = $75

3 IdleCP x 10 = $30 (Idle CPs were at Thulun, so no bonus from the trade route)

-> This gets me to a total revenue of $ 420 compared to the 340 the system calculates.

Anyone sees any obvious mistake in my calcs?

3. Revenues of the Colonies

Just 1 example: Thulun: (+98/-52 as per Colony screen)

Revenues:

3 Pop = $42

6 Minerals = $126

(luckily Thuluns have no TP;but in case of Valtos we would have the question if TPs would need to be added at colony level or not)

(3 Idle CP = $ 30, not sure if this would be added to the colony)

Maintenance:

1 Prime Starport: $10

2 Hab1: $20

1 Factory1: $10

5 Mine1: $25

-> Total Maintenance: $65.

Taking into account the listed maintenance rate (84%) Maíntenance would be 55, taking the calculated one of 82% it gets us to 53,3. assuming maintenance rate is calculated individually for each colony the -52 Maintenance rate looks reasonable enough.

-> Considering the Costs could be confirmed, how comes there is a such a  huge discrepancy at revenues (should be at least: 42+126=168, or even 198 if IdleCP gets added to colony income)?

4. Broad numbers

Ignoring the findings above and just believing the system calcs, the 3 Colonies list profits of just $81 ( 46(T)+13(J)+22(V)  )

I assume this would be the system result of colony income (income generated - building maintenance).

From this we probably would have to substract the fleet maintenance ($79) which leaves a profit of a mere +$2

-> Where is the other $132 coming from that is missing to the total profit of $134?
It's nothing obvious at least, 2 TPs (if they aren't added at colony level) are "only" $42 or 3 Idle CPs (same assumption) are only $30.

I know, it's lots of text, lots of question, but maybe somebody can hint me at what I'm missing in my considerations.

Thanks a million :-)

[tenbsmith]

Impressive to collect all those parameters. Did you get them from the Senate Library and the Game Manual? Maybe double check them?

Regarding 2. Total Revenue: The TP multiplier might be off. I think the Devaltos bonus only applies to TP from Devaltos systems. Likewise the Trade Route bonus only applies to TP from colonies of the two factions in the Trade Route.

Based on my experience with Trese Bros (TB) games, the calculations the game is making may be more complex than what is exposed. The TBs also want to keep a certain amount of the game mechanics secret, so the game doesn't become some arcane exercise in math. That said, it'd be nice to have the numbers add up.

[Cory Trese]

It isn't that we want to keep any mechanics secret, however, there are fundamental difficulties with explaining all of the nuances, difficulties and edge case calculations.

We do our best to display numbers that are correct but I doubt there will be any value added in players trying to "hand check" the rules.

-> This gets me to a total revenue of $ 420 compared to the 340 the system calculates.
Anyone sees any obvious mistake in my calcs?

If you are really keen on trying to add things up, I would suggest playing on Easy. On that mode you have minimal penalties to offset. If you aren't playing on Easy, then you will have per-turn revenue generation penalties.

For example, on Easy, Population will generate 14CR. On Impossible, one Population will generate only 10CR.

I'm totally lost on #3 and #4, we may just be struggling with some general confusion and misunderstandings on the screens here. If you want to dig into those, might be best to post screenshots explaining "here is where I got the data and numbers I"m listing here ..."

[euphorion]

Oh...I wasn't aware that the general income data for the different buildings and pop varies with difficulty. There is no mentioning of that (as far as I could see) in the Library.
If the numbvrs are just turned down by some penalty factor, then I guess the whole thing makes sense again. (they all come from an "Impossible" game).

Can you give me some other numbers as to how the "base values" change at impossible?
I guess having the Credit values for TP/Mineral/IdleCP (beside the number for population you already gave) would be very helpful indications.
Also: Are the maintenance values unchanged at all difficulty levels?

As for making it an exercise in math - that's certainly not my intention. But for a strategy game to have the basic numbers at hand/in mind usually comes very handy.
Like not being able to generate ANY profit from population at Impossible is such an quite important information.

Could you possibly add some table to the ingame/online manual which lists the values for income (and if applicable maintenance) at the different difficulty levels?

[Cory Trese]

Sure I can put that on my list.

No clue what you mean about "Like not being able to generate ANY profit from population" that's a totally false statement.

The basic numbers are in the manual and give you the exact ratio that applies across all difficulties.

On impossible all base values are reduced by 4. It's very, very simple lol.

But again, spending a bunch of time trying to hand integer calculate out all the values you see on the screens ... yikes / why? It won't make the game more fun nor will it help you understand the rules ...

[euphorion]

Hmmm. I probably don't understand it.

As I see it:

At easy 1 pop generates $14. 1 Housing unit in general costs $10 maintenance. So there's a net profit from the population alone of $4 per Housing unit. Even if you keep a few housing units extra in order to accomodate for future pop growth you should generate some income from that - or at least break even.

If at Impossible you only generate $10 per population (and the maintenance stays at the same $10) then you cannot generate any actual profit from population, esp. considering that you in most case will have to have 1 or 2 extra housing units.

[Cory Trese]

the maintenance stays at the same

This assumption is where the entire problem starts.

At Morale 10, you are getting a 20% maintenance discount, so that Hab Unit only costs $8.

You also receive Faction-wide maintenance discounts from Alliances and Trade Alliances -- can get your cost down below $7 per Population.

[euphorion]

aha, thanks for the info.

Well you see, lacking the proper data inputs one has to rely on assumptions, and assumption usually is the mother of all f*ups ;-)

[Cory Trese]

Sorry, did our best to explain the game in the Tutorial, Library, Game Manual and Let's Play Videos but we've always fallen short.

Our very small budgets end up going mostly towards the game and not enough towards marketing and extensive rules documentation and videos explaining the rules.

Sorry!

[euphorion]

No worries. Glad to FINALLY having found a space strategy game of that quality for mobiles.

My gaming time (beside being way less in general) went from 100% PC 5 years ago to 95% mobile devices nowadays and so far I hadn't found anything that really satisfied me for my most favourized game types (MoO2, GalCiV series etc) on mobile devices.

[fallen]

euphorion - we hope you will leave a review and share with friends!

[euphorion]

I rarely do leave reviews, but in this case I did of course already. Even though I'm never sure if a review in the country specific sections (Germany in my case) will be added to the "broad international score" somehow. At least I always seem to be presented the country score only (there were like 2 or 3 reviews before only)

[Cory Trese]

Jun 25, 2015 9:56:53 GMT -5 euphorion said:

I rarely do leave reviews, but in this case I did of course already. Even though I'm never sure if a review in the country specific sections (Germany in my case) will be added to the "broad international score" somehow. At least I always seem to be presented the country score only (there were like 2 or 3 reviews before only)

We do really appreciate you leaving a review. One of the upcoming additions I am working on is a screen that breaks down the Colony numbers in more detail -- showing which Politics are impacting, what the total price of a TP is, stuff like that.

Very busy on ST 2 these days tho.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2015 10:09:46 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

...Very busy on ST 2 these days tho.

Hmmm...ST2? Well we really don't need to distract you from something as vitally important as ST2...Please carry on...

[Brutus Aurelius]

But first, Battle Force P3