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Post by contributor on Jun 30, 2015 5:20:18 GMT -5
I haven't played much yet with the new (0.0.15) update yet, but I'll post this anyways, because I doubt much has changed in regards to this game dynamic. It will also be interesting to see the final balance in the game, because during the alpha we get to use Boost-In. I suspect though that Boost-In XP and RP allocations are similar what we would get from a straight play through. Enough caveats though here's the big question:
Are the current rates of XP and RP allocation good and do they allow for enough freedom in unit development or do they enforce a somewhat flatter development (i.e. nobody can get too far ahead of anyone else). Put another way, are we able to develop highly specialized teams by neglecting to develop one type of unit in favor of another or are we somewhat forced to develop all types at about the same level?
Here's the dynamics I see them now.
To develop your soldiers you need both XP and RP. RP gets you access to gear and talent levels while XP let's your soldier level up and develop their traits and skills and also controls how much and what levels of equipment they can equip.
The amount of XP you gain controls the usefulness of the RP you spend because the amount (and level) of gear that you can equip is dependent on the level of your soldier. It does limited good to spend a bunch of RP to unlock advanced levels for a particular class because they won't be able to equip that gear until they've gained much more RP. To an extent this also applies to talent levels as well. Since you only increase talent levels every level or two, there's no point in unlocking talent levels 8-10 in the RP tree when your knight is only level 6.
What I'm finding personally now is that the balance between XP and RP is causing me to really spread my RP around to all the classes. I could unlock more RP levels for a particular class, but there's no point because I can't use those levels with the units I have at the moment. So instead I spend it on other classes because that class has free gear points and they will be able to equip the gear that will be unlocked. All this makes it feel like I can't really let one class run ahead of the others and develop such unique squads as I might have liked. I also don't feel like I'm forced to make hard choices because there's not much room for trade-off between making my Berserker an overpowered killing machine or letting my soldiers catch up a bit to the rest of the group. I'm curious to see what others think and also whether boost in reflects the levels of XP and RP that will be found in the actual game. For reference, in my most experienced group, my captain has 2200 something XP.
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Post by fallen on Jun 30, 2015 8:42:33 GMT -5
Great post and something we talk about a lot. As a reference, it sounds like your Captain is level 12.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jun 30, 2015 9:05:09 GMT -5
It is all connected back to how you are playing the game. The way you deploy your Templars, and in what mix, determines the amount of XP you gain. The way you gain XP determines how you will optimally spend your RP. There aren't really enough levels in the P2 Alpha to play to Level 20 without multiple repeats, but the math still shines. I could post different builds that show focused vs. broad RP and XP spend from levels 5 to 20, but that isn't the part of the post I'm interested in discussing anymore. The line that really stands out to me, the really concerning part of the feedback is this: If the game isn't giving you a fun experience building those two Templars, it won't matter how RP or XP are allocated -- they still won't be fun. If there aren't any choices here than I'm worried the game has completely missed the mark  |
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Post by En1gma on Jun 30, 2015 11:10:19 GMT -5
I know exactly what contributor is trying to get across. My first group ever I went crazy deep into the Scout tree, The Hydra tree, and the Commander tree. Like really deep, filling out a few of the sub-trees completely, expecting to be able to utilize the unlocks (at least in some way) I spent points on. Only to be saddened by the fact that I wasn't unlocking talents/abilities that could be used immediately, that I would need to wait to make use of what I unlocked much further down the road, once the Scout/Hydra/Commander reached far higher levels. Having noted this, I started another game, but though I wanted to specialize mt various troops I realized that they wouldn't be able to use anything until they had leveled up significantly. Keeping this in mind, I distributed my points evenly, not specializing in anything (like I was hoping to do), and so every troop was even. All points spent were on talents I knew they would be able to use within a few levels of their current level. This resulted in a balanced squad, with no one soldier being any better than another, or having ay outstanding qualities. While being balanced, I don't feel like I was able to build my squad the way I truly wanted to. I wanted my Engineers to focus on Turret Deployment, for example. And my Scouts on +MP and Stealth, or on Damage and their Curses. I wanted my Hydras to be able to immolate huge swaths of the battlefield. I understand that aspects would be sacrificed to be able to do this, but I still wanted to try the builds out. I'm not just ranting, I have a suggestion that I think could help this issue... -The biggest thing that stands out for me is the fact that there are level limits on every ability, which must be unlocked by the RP. I understand that there is a balance to this, but it does force you to keep everything relatively even, just because there is no actual benefit to going deep in one of the trees if you cant use everything right away. --To this effect, why not remove the level limits on the abilities in the Requisition fields. Have the certain ability be unlocked in the tree, but ALL the levels of said ability, not just 1-3, 4-6, 7-8, 9-10. This allows the player to buy the rights to the ability, and spend all the Talent Points they want on it, not being forced to spend more RP on further levels of the ability. --Further levels of the ability in the Req tree could improve ALL levels of the ability by adding improved damage types, AoE, etc. If I can think of anything else on this, I'll be sure to come back and type more, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. |
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Post by fallen on Jun 30, 2015 11:15:54 GMT -5
En1gma - thanks for the input. We won't be changing the way that talents are structured ("further levels of the ability in the Req tree could improve ALL levels ..."). I think the meat of the discussion is still in why you feel like you can't build a squad in which "my Engineers to focus on Turret Deployment, for example. And my Scouts on +MP and Stealth, or on Damage and their Curses. I wanted my Hydras to be able to immolate huge swaths of the battlefield. I understand that aspects would be sacrificed to be able to do this, but I still wanted to try the builds out." I'm not sure why you can't do that. Is it related to RP somehow? If you have a Scout, you can pick to focus them on +MP Buffs and curses ... ? Or you felt like building a generalist army was a better way to play the game instead of focusing the XP spend on your Templars? Also, try Respec.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jun 30, 2015 11:19:37 GMT -5
This is so interesting! Quiet a bit different than our squad building experience which leads me to more questions than answers.
- How often are you using Respec?
- What levels are you discussing?
- Can you send me the saved games for analysis?
- Are you using Boost In or Super Boost In?
I've built and tested a dozen highly specialized squads over the past week, from level 1 to level 22 more than ten times.
Super critical that we get some further details so we can really narrow in on what is causing the disconnect between the game math, my squads and the alpha perceptions.
I think we have to start with good clear answers on those first four questions.
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Post by Brutus Aurelius on Jun 30, 2015 11:28:20 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we get so much RP to use that what we can purchase, Talent Level wise, outclasses what our Templars can achieve.
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Post by fallen on Jun 30, 2015 11:33:47 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we get so much RP to use that what we can purchase, Talent Level wise, outclasses what our Templars can achieve. In terms of using the Super Boost-In and Boost-In? |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jun 30, 2015 11:34:12 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we get so much RP to use that what we can purchase, Talent Level wise, outclasses what our Templars can achieve. If that is the only issue then I think it just a matter of explaining how to build Templars, relative to specialists and class build. Still, hoping primarily for good clear answers on those first four questions. |
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Post by Brutus Aurelius on Jun 30, 2015 11:37:23 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we get so much RP to use that what we can purchase, Talent Level wise, outclasses what our Templars can achieve. In terms of using the Super Boost-In and Boost-In? Yes. I can get the RP to give my Soldiers Burst Fire 6 for example, but they don't have the Talent points to get that far without dedicating them all to a single talent. While that might work on lower difficulties, higher difficulties and higher level Templars require more variety in Talents to be effective on the battlefield. |
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Post by fallen on Jun 30, 2015 11:39:44 GMT -5
Ok, sounding more and more like this is an issue with building squads via Boost-In, which isn't really targeted for main-stream play of the game and is more a sandbox mode for alpha. Can contributor and En1gma comment on where these squads they were discussing originated? Boost-In? Super Boost-In? |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jun 30, 2015 12:04:36 GMT -5
In terms of using the Super Boost-In and Boost-In? While that might work on lower difficulties, higher difficulties and higher level Templars require more variety in Talents to be effective on the battlefield. Hmmmmm ... BF is not HoS. I would dispense with the idea that higher level Templars cannot go all in on a single Talent. |
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Post by En1gma on Jun 30, 2015 12:05:59 GMT -5
Even on the boost in with 1600 RP to spend, I find myself evenly distributing the points over every different character, because there isn't any point in fully maxing out any particular tree. Because the ratio of (Talent Points:Unlocked Talents:RP to spend:Levels Attained) is the way it is, The only way to spend your RP is in a balanced way, because no matter how deep you want to go into a class's talent tree, you will never have enough Talent Points gained by leveling to get to where you want to be. I'm having the same issue with the Gear Allocation, which is another reason it doesn't make sense to go deep into a character's skill tree. The 9 Gear Point Sword/Armor/Weapon looks great, but you won't actually get to use them until again, your character gets crazy high in levels. Another reason to keep everything balanced, not to go deep. To answer some of your questions, Cory Trese: - I'm not using Respec, because I'm happy with how I have built my Templars within the constraints of (Leveling= Attribute:Skill:Talent Point distribution). My Templars themselves are fine, effective, simply limited on what talents/gear they can use within the constraints of the current unlock/RP system. - Yes, I'm using the first Boost-In available, with the 1600 RP start. - I'm not rooted, so I can't send you my games This isn't an issue with whether or not I can specialize my Templars. I know I can make my Scouts go for 1) Sniper, 2) Stealth Op, 3)Scout, 4) Deep Op. My issue is that going deeper in these makes no sense, because of the Level limitations. Being so limited in your Gear Point allocation, your Talent Point Allocation, etc ensures that you will only be able to utilize the unlocks of the earliest section of the branch, not the later parts. This makes it useless to truly specialize, because you only have so many Talent Points/Gear Points to use. - All this encourages is the player to spread their points evenly across ALL of their Templars, not to go deeper because there is no way the Templar can make use of later areas of ther respective branches. God I hope this makes sense  |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jun 30, 2015 12:12:12 GMT -5
I have more questions:
"you will never have enough Talent Points gained by leveling to get to where you want to be."
Do you mean that you can never get your Templar Level high enough? Talents do max out at 10, which you can easily do with a Templar by Level 16.
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"Another reason to keep everything balanced, not to go deep."
I guess the question starts to become ... is this your play style, or feedback on the game. It sorta sounds like you're describing a strategy here -- one I cannot say I agree with.
"My issue is that going deeper in these makes no sense, because of the Level limitations."
So for your Sniper after Boost In, she ONLY purchased Headshot, right? By Level 8, she has 5 Headshot and by Level 20 she has Headshot 10 and Talents to Spare.
Boost In gives you a starting squad, not an elite group of specialists. It doesn't intended to give you enough RP or XP to get to Level 8 -- that's available in Super Boost In.
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Post by En1gma on Jun 30, 2015 12:24:26 GMT -5
Granted, I need to play more and get further. I'll do more testing tonight, as some groups I have are still fairly low. Looking at my saved games, my farthest squad is around 7-8, so definitely a noob squad apparently. I still see the same happening, though, as unlocking part of a branch with a 5-7 GP piece of equipment doesn't make sense if you don't have the extra GP to equip it. I'll report back later  |
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