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Post by anrdaemon on Jan 1, 2016 15:58:05 GMT -5
Besides the balance issue for Tami, look up the Fairbain-Sykes knife, aka the British Commando knife. I wouldn't try to parry a sword swing with a 30cm long stick of thin metal. |
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Post by John Robinson on Jan 1, 2016 17:21:06 GMT -5
Sorry to have made confusion about the "off hand" remark. I am not talking about the game art, I am talking about Weapon Slot #1 (primary) and Weapon Slot #2 (secondary). You cannot wield any weapon in Slot #2, it is very restricted -- either you are Dual Wielding Blades (light or swords), or Throwing Knives (Kincaid), or Bows (Sneaks), or you are a Shield using class. In the case of Dual Wield and Shields, you can gain Parry from your Slot #2. Otherwise, you dont. Okey dokey, thanks for the clarification. Will +parry be added to Torent of Steel? Any chance of adding +Parry to Kincaid's Flanking Unity group buff? It's got a pretty high SP cost and isn't available until level(12). |
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Post by CdrPlatypus on Jan 1, 2016 19:54:04 GMT -5
No no adding parry to the talents. That's over complicating a simple balance fix. fallen I've considered that build, so ate you using 2ap throwing knives then and foregoing use of the bow? I imagine it won't be accurate enough to use without raising bow skill or dex |
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Post by fallen on Jan 1, 2016 19:56:54 GMT -5
Okey dokey, thanks for the clarification. Will +parry be added to Torent of Steel? Any chance of adding +Parry to Kincaid's Flanking Unity group buff? It's got a pretty high SP cost and isn't available until level(12). Not really considering any other changes. This is really addressing the fact that Tamilin used to carry a Light Blade in her primary slot. A careful player always bought Tamilin the best parrying dagger available, and throughout the game was able to raise her Parry up to 8 or 9 Strong Dice by the end of Episode 4. Because of the change to Torrent of Steel, Tamilin has lost 8 or 9 Strong Dice from her weapon's parry. That is what needs to be addressed. Parry can't be added to Attack Talents like Torrent of Steel or any others like it, its not something the engine can support. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 2, 2016 3:03:54 GMT -5
Just because I'm an absurd non-conformist. I offer a couple more thoughts... 1. If the TK is Kincaid's best parry, despite TKs having low parry, then maybe he should get it too. 2. Sly look used = buffing attack +parry and/or dodge for 3 rounds might be interesting. Speaking for myself. EDIT: I'd also like to point out, tooting my own feeble horn, that I brought up this issue the first night the update was posted. Glad that CdrPlatypus has the bonafides to give it traction. It's easy to overlook a measly, yet mildly proud and hopeful, rabbit. |
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Post by algesan on Jan 2, 2016 9:17:54 GMT -5
Besides the balance issue for Tami, look up the Fairbain-Sykes knife, aka the British Commando knife. I wouldn't try to parry a sword swing with a 30cm long stick of thin metal. Well, one does have options. Voiding the attack works no matter what one has to parry with since one simply moves out of the way. One could choose to interposed one's limb or hand to take the blow (which is pretty much what happens or worse if one screws up the parry). Also, one could simply slap the blade aside on the flat with the bare hand. It depends on one's training, or lack thereof. |
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phaze
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Post by phaze on Jan 2, 2016 9:43:18 GMT -5
An interesting discussion. Having started a party with Tamilin using throwing knives, I have opted for a similar strategy as Fallen using stealth, dodge, con. I've played similar parties with Selen running stealth and little QD until late game. It definitely works overall as long as one prioritizes stealth. In this, Tamilin gets an edge over Selen getting blacknight earlier than QD and DoS. Throwing knives skill still adds to melee defense, and compared to Selen (who I ran as bows exclusively), I think the defense numbers work out reasonably close if one is raising blacklight and throwing knives skill.
From playing multiple stealth parties, losing stealth is dangerous but as Tamilin never had a parry talent, she was always risky and a parry blade helps but is not sufficient to allow her to tank melee ever from my experience. One can still build Tamilin to survive a round of stealth loss. It is not as easy as Selen given the natural higher HP and awesomeness of QD.
As a point, the talent distribution of Selen and Tamilin is different. Example, I always use the highest crit % item I can with Selen to up crit chance. As Tamilin has better crit % with DI, this frees up an equipment slot for a defensive item that can put her on terms defensively with Selen or maximize stealth for minimizing further those rare stealth losses.
I feel the loss of a parrying choice with Tamilin...but also think this change makes Tamilin the undisputed Queen of Ranged Damage. With ToS/throwing knives and a bow using those talents, Tamilin can inflict massive area damage all the way from 1 square up to 7 squares and do it with ease. My current party, using Kjartan and CA, makes me feel bad for the Ratkin as they literally just melt under a barrage of TS with often room to spare to fire an arrow to tag enemies at distance. As the character matures and I get more equipment options, the new Tamilin will be incredibly strong, making the rest of my party jealous for sheer damage output.
The evolution of Tamilin makes her a pure offensive character even more so...there is a danger in this to be sure, but the trade-off feels reasonable. A parrying blade would never make Tamilin a tank character without a parry talent, so while she loses out on some defensive die, how much does this actually impact game play? Tamilin before and after the change was always weak to melee attacks. This is more accentuated in the new version, but ToS is incredible offensive attack, and a reasonable offset. Being able to throw seven area attacks in a turn makes me giggle maniacally on the same level of using a LS Vincent. ToS is powerful.
Just some thoughts as I map out my first use of the new Tamilin.
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Post by anrdaemon on Jan 2, 2016 10:18:19 GMT -5
Hint: Just forget Parry on Tamilin altogether. Don't let anyone close enough to land a blow.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 2, 2016 10:32:12 GMT -5
phaze I agree 90% but think Gundamgoth was right on point about stealth lead and surviving long term. BN is great, but it's never gonna match QsD.
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Post by anrdaemon on Jan 2, 2016 10:36:13 GMT -5
And it shouldn't. Don't try to make two different characters the same.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 2, 2016 10:38:09 GMT -5
And it shouldn't. Don't try to make two different characters the same. I totally agree. |
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Post by En1gma on Jan 2, 2016 10:52:24 GMT -5
If you're forgetting Parry, then Blacknight may need a boost in the early levels. I agree that enemies shouldn't ever be that close, but failing a Stealth roll could likely mean insta-death.
To keep the conversation going, with her added flexibility in TK and cursing talents, foregoing damage gear and focusing only on Stealth (in the early/early-mid game anyway) will still result in a balanced character who eventually comes into her own as a slaughterer. I've always focused Stealth gear on Tam, and once Blacknight got up enough to keep her safe I would move to damage gear.
By not allowing her too much in the way of melee dice, you are forced to play much more deliberately, and make better choices in talent/skill/attribute allotment (specifically keeping her Stealth ahead of the curve) Adding to this is the fact that you can still lead with Vraes/Caid. You don't always need to have her in the front...
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Post by fallen on Jan 2, 2016 11:21:46 GMT -5
En1gma - +3 Dodge and +3 Stealth is a very nice first level lol  phaze - great post. I am not taking any action on this without further analysis. At the moment, shelved. In my Ironman game, I have not actually seen this as a problem yet.
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Post by anrdaemon on Jan 2, 2016 11:48:46 GMT -5
I'm not on Ironman yet, but I can drop a note on my Hard VKFT.
Of all lost stealth rolls(3 so far), Tamilin never been in danger. Ever.
Even when my game crashed in first turn and I got a respawn without stealth check.
And Red Hill Storerooms is a different question altogether.
To me, saying "Tamilin lost 9 parry" while she never gets a chance to use it in first place is kind of… strange.
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phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368
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Post by phaze on Jan 2, 2016 12:10:01 GMT -5
I would say the game has several difficult areas for stealth rolls that are fearsome. The storerooms and the Krete islands. The storerooms are close-quarters and a stealth roll fail will mean at least one melee enemy in tamilin's face (and can be a deathkin, giant rat, or warrior with 3 AP) and likely facing ranged attacks as well. It is deadly...but one can choose different set-ups to mitigate stealth loss and maximize survivability. The Krete Islands are deadly for their high spot ability and ability to deliver ranged Death. I dread episode 4 Krete if they make more appearances. Again, one can maximize stealth or not lead with tamilin in key areas. There are strategies. In episode 2, for those quests, I'll max stealth to 30+ and have not lost a roll yet. Maximizing stealth always seems easier to me with the plethora of skills/talents/equipment options to raise stealth. In early episode 2, it seems more plausible than making a viable defense oriented Selen/Tamilin.
The rest of the game seems manageable with a linear stealth increase and poses less danger to Tamilin if a stealth roll is lost as the enemy opportunity to damage you is less.
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