For Legends of Steel and later only...

[wascalwywabbit]

I know it's early for this, but for Legends I personally don't think every empowered attack should have +acc, rather few should, because it tends to have the whole expected curve rely on that to some degree. 

[wascalwywabbit]

Heroes could... Do 1 (or 2) acc per lvl basic attacks, up to 9 (19) at lvl 10 purely for an sp efficient attack, but my understanding is basic attacks will NEVER get multiple levels, so... yeah.

[Cory Trese]

I don't think we'll include "basic attacks" in future games, they're really not useful. A mistake we cannot correct in HoS, but in future games certainly possible.

Regarding the overall curve, we tend to come up with the balance system first before assigning rules to it -- things like "empowered attacks should (or should not) have +ACC" interfere with good game design. Making choices based on hoping how the curve will turn out is a lot less efficient than addressing the curve directly.

In HoS, we could have elected to bury 4 ACC points and that would give the appearance of a much flatter curve with the same ending result (correct balance) but that is hiding information which we tend to avoid. We'd rather balance the game and share all the details with the players, rather than balance and obscure for aesthetic reasons.

[wascalwywabbit]

Jan 9, 2016 13:24:03 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

I don't think we'll include "basic attacks" in future games, they're really not useful. A mistake we cannot correct in HoS, but in future games certainly possible.

Regarding the overall curve, we tend to come up with the balance system first before assigning rules to it -- things like "empowered attacks should (or should not) have +ACC" interfere with good game design. Making choices based on hoping how the curve will turn out is a lot less efficient than addressing the curve directly.

In HoS, we could have elected to bury 4 ACC points and that would give the appearance of a much flatter curve with the same ending result (correct balance) but that is hiding information which we tend to avoid. We'd rather balance the game and share all the details with the players, rather than balance and obscure for aesthetic reasons.

1. Depends on design

2. Don't they have interdependence?

3. I agree, but that's slightly besides the point I was trying to make. Rather than higher botton end, hidden or not, I was suggesting a smoother basic attack curve/wave (rather than the current singular pulse); or as in the top most post, lower top range or more incomparables of empowered attacks.

[Cory Trese]

Not sure I follow. Game dev math is fun tho.

[wascalwywabbit]

Jan 9, 2016 14:08:46 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Not sure I follow. Game dev math is fun tho.

Yep, shame we're talking past each other a bit.

To simplify, may I ask what your original thinking for basics attacks was and how they should play out before the current reality crept up. I still think it wasn't necessarily a bad idea, just power creep is hard to keep in check, particularly when it becomes nigh absolute in effect.

[fallen]

Jan 9, 2016 14:17:57 GMT -5 wascalwywabbit said:

Yep, shame we're talking past each other a bit.

To simplify, may I ask what your original thinking for basics attacks was and how they should play out before the current reality crept up. I still think it wasn't necessarily a bad idea, just power creep is hard to keep in check, particularly when it becomes nigh absolute in effect.

I think Cory Trese gave a great answer the first time.

They provide a last-ditch effort when you have 0 SP.

In short, they should never be used.

[wascalwywabbit]

Jan 9, 2016 14:31:10 GMT -5 fallen said:

Jan 9, 2016 14:17:57 GMT -5 wascalwywabbit said:

Yep, shame we're talking past each other a bit.

To simplify, may I ask what your original thinking for basics attacks was and how they should play out before the current reality crept up. I still think it wasn't necessarily a bad idea, just power creep is hard to keep in check, particularly when it becomes nigh absolute in effect.

They provide a last-ditch effort when you have 0 SP.

In short, they should never be used.

Was that the original intent tho?

The problem as I see it is you can reach a point, particularly new players, where you have no sp, no potions, no money, and no winning strategies/tactics - sure you can always take 2 deaths for an sp and hp refill, but that hasn't always proven enough just reading the forum here - particularly devastating to lose several hours or more to that, albeit rare, situation. Basic attacks being effective thruout the, very long, game would help with that don't you think?

In sum imo you never want to have the player feel like they've wasted their time, even when it's good enough to start again - it's not a game to be beaten in an hour where that is a feature... Nor do you want wasted talent space.

I'm not trying to open or cause wounds, just express myself more clearly, hopefully with meaning.

As an example, if the save game can't have multiple talent levels for basic attacks, you could simply gain acc by a fraction of character level for basic attacks only to reflect sheer experience. E.g. 1/4 for warriors (max +16 at 64), 1/5 for stealth and healers (+12 max) 1/6 for mages (+10 max).

As usual, I could be way wrong, but my brain has gone there, and I let my fingers follow.

[wascalwywabbit]

Jan 9, 2016 14:31:10 GMT -5 fallen said:

Jan 9, 2016 14:17:57 GMT -5 wascalwywabbit said:

Yep, shame we're talking past each other a bit.

To simplify, may I ask what your original thinking for basics attacks was and how they should play out before the current reality crept up. I still think it wasn't necessarily a bad idea, just power creep is hard to keep in check, particularly when it becomes nigh absolute in effect.

I think Cory Trese gave a great answer the first time.

They provide a last-ditch effort when you have 0 SP.

In short, they should never be used.

Well you've been working and living with him before that as kids for years, so you're on the same page, I'm only only halfway there in that I'm human too and enjoy the games you make.

[matrim]

It's interesting to read about how other people play this game. I personally find empowered attacks to be incredibly underpowered and a huge drain on resources. My strategies tend to focus on buffing basic attacks and applying curses so that every attack is not costing me 10 SP but rather killing a group of monsters costs me 200ish spread over all 4 characters. I tried an empowered attack build, probably poorly executed, but I frequently ran out of SP after just 2 fights. Also it is frustrating to spend 10 SP on a big attack that misses, then to spend 10 SP on a second attack that leaves a mob alive with 5 HP and then not have the basic accuracy to polish it off with a normal attack so 10SP sunk into taking those last 5 HP. The only way I would even consider an empowered attack (prior to when you get to the stage where SP drain lets you use them all the time with no penalty) is if the damage they added was to the minimum damage so I am not spending 10SP on an attack that does 10 damage against a war troll that has 1300 HP.

[fallen]

Jan 9, 2016 14:56:55 GMT -5 wascalwywabbit said:

Was that the original intent tho?

Yes, that was always the intent.

Everyone finds their own strategies within the game, which is awesome.

As Cory mentioned, it isn't something we'll include in future games.

[wascalwywabbit]

I should not write, I'm bad at it, and the thoughts behind it a nuisance. Excuse me while I take my meds so I don't get worse.

[Cory Trese]

Less than 1% of active players make normal use of the Level 0 Talents. If you make heavy use of them, you are probably one of a very small group.

They exist to avoid an edge case where a Hero has literally zero remaining Talents they can use.

At that point, the player is recommended to use the basic level 0 Talents, because they have no SP cost.

If the character still has SP, the player is better off using a real Talent.

That was the original intent, and how the math works ... and how 99% of people are playing the game.

We certainly won't make an exact clone of Heroes that uses the same rules, so any future games will certain take into account the lessons learned from our experience supporting Heroes across all the various forums and e-mails.

[wascalwywabbit]

That makes it worse!

Normal use as in every attack, or normal use as in end of last battle before camping?

Edge case still very much there when you can't hit anything and to a lesser degree get past armor without cursing/empowered with current equipment. Can easily run out of money and potions to help.

Yes, it's not expected to be used, and that's how the math works but that is in no way obvious to new players.

Should rename 'basic' attacks 'desperate stabs in the dark' to make it clear they are intended to be that, give tips in the loading screens and/or at least give sp potions randomly, something/ anything to truly fix the edge cases, because they are still not that rare.

Does your analytics take into account played and deleted games with no internet access, or more so, total frustrated man-hours of every player?

Analytics are useful, but they have become a crutch in modern times that still don't account for all human experience in the games. Observing live, in person and unaided still give a fuller picture.

Having incomplete data is dealing in obscurities and half truths.

Data != knowledge!

For a moment I thought it was my meds being off, which they are, but not THAT off!

[richard]

With Fyona, I frequently use the basic attack because it uses 0 SP.
I start by wracking someone with Zealous Strike and then I have a super charged basic attached for MOB.
It saves on SP.
is
For the rest of the character, you are correct, the basic attack is only used because out of SP or the Monster is about dead and the basic attack will finish him off (I get to save SP).