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Post by En1gma on Aug 22, 2016 10:43:55 GMT -5
I wonder if this is an aspect of Holy magic? Unless you go with bringing the dead back to life, which is a new ballgame altogether. Nobody likes a Necromancer. Holy magic? Sure... "I come to bring life and bring it more abundantly." is something Jesus was supposed to have said, and many consider him holy, seems apt. Actually bringing the dead back to life is celebrated as a miracle, Lazarus and the 12yo girl (At least everyone supposedly thought she was dead, except Jesus who said she was sleeping) from the NT and the Boy that Elijah saved, plus many similar miracles claimed from the eastern religions too (not sure on other tribal religions tho)... Though most sources I've seen imply "life" in those cases being [predominantly] spiritual and not bodily life per se. I think this is subjective based on the setting of your story. I'm planning out a story for my own enjoyment that involves a city in isolation, kept there by a corrupt triumvirate/high court, who possess a powerful Holy/Healing type magic. Any other magic is forbidden, and any who exhibit any traits or talents of another school of magic are exiled. For anyone but the ruling class to bring the dead back to life in this world with any other type of magic would be instantly punishable by death as it would unravel the narrative that keeps the subjects/populace in check and subservient. I guess it depends on the people doing the resurrecting... If both Holy magic and Necromancy are capable of bringing the dead to life, I guess it becomes a matter of intention, as you said. A holy man would use this to aid suffering, bring closure, or even undo a tragic and untimely death. A necro would do this selfishly, intending to enslave and cause suffering. This could also lead to an interesting twist on the trope... A well meaning necro with a heart who brings peoples' loved ones back to life for a short time, but is feared and hated for trying to do good where the holy ones refused. Seeing ones late betrothed walking and talking would certainly be extremely jarring, even if the necromancer was trying to help... Poor necro... |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 22, 2016 10:55:39 GMT -5
I think the truth Seers greatest battle would be against self lies and delusions of pride and ignorance of the general populace as much as those of the Illusionists who manipulate them. Perhaps both manipulations can only bend the minds of others so far before their small mindedness or confusion causes backlashes? This raises another question: Who would the populace favor in general? --The Truth Seers, who are blunt and straightforward, not really telling people what they want to hear. Yes they are correct, and yes, the people know this, but are they loved for their powers, or hated at times? --The Illusionists, who are charming, witty, and always know the right things to say at any given moment. Even though the people know that they are likely being lied to, their ego would constantly be massaged, their expectations high, and though nothing would turn out as promised, they would always be optimistic about the outcome. They would find that massed misinformation would create its own manifest destiny, as entire groups would see the lies as truth for days/weeks/months at a time, leading them to believe that it's real. How would a Seer be able to convince entire populations that they are both living a lie and that those telling it are fully aware of their wrongdoings, intending to mislead them for their own gains. I see the Illusionists (Need a different name for them, I think... Sowers of Falsehood, or something to this effect...) as being the ones who are loved, and the Seers as being the ones reviled. Sometimes it is easier to believe a pleasant lie than the hard cold truth. tenbsmith quite the concept you came up with here, I see potential for this... |
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Post by tenbsmith on Aug 22, 2016 11:12:04 GMT -5
Good points wascalwywabbit. Perhaps part of the Truth Seers training would involve facing and attempting to overcome their own pride and delusions. Perhaps this would drive some of them mad or to the dark side. You might have Truth Seers operating on both the side of good and evil. Same thing for illusionists. I also agree that both disciplines ability to bend minds would be limited. The limitation of the Truth Seer is that they can only make people realize the truth. Often the truth on any given fact does not align with where a given person want society to go, or even with society's best interest. Even after exposure to the truth, some people would easily regress to more comfortable lies. The truth is hard. Exposing some people to the truth could lead to unintended, perhaps violent, consequences. The limitation of the illusionist is that his effort are not supported by reality, so people will naturally tend to overcome the illusions if they keep their open and are exposed to contrary real experiences/facts. |
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Post by tenbsmith on Aug 22, 2016 11:20:22 GMT -5
En1gma, I really like your sketch of the relative likeability of the two disciplines. I think the Truth Seers might often be hated, especially by rulers trying to get the population to follow a certain course of action. I agree we should find a new name for the illusionists. As illusionists and liars, they might choose to name themselves in a way that misleads... something the makes them sound good. My original concept was that both groups can only influence through direct contact. So, the Truth Seer might give a speech, accompanied by allowing people to 'see' things that were distal (like your wife cheating on you with your best friend last week), or influence leaders. The Illusionist, for lack of a better name, could use words, or create actual visual/sensual illusions. The Truth Seer could dispell these illusions.
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Post by tenbsmith on Aug 22, 2016 11:24:46 GMT -5
BTW, i think the basic concept could work equally well in fantasy or sci/fi settings.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 22, 2016 11:28:18 GMT -5
I'm almost envisioning a Game of Thrones type setting, or one equally as gritty and Gothic...
Not sure on the sci-fi setting yet, but it could work...
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Post by tenbsmith on Aug 22, 2016 14:06:48 GMT -5
En1gma, my original thought was a medieval, fantasy setting with limited magic and some sort of political intrigue--so definite similarities to GoT. Though one might also go at it from a more personal, less epic perspective.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 22, 2016 15:39:14 GMT -5
Also... There can be many truths, and many sides to each truth. This deepens the level of treachery that can be caused on either side. The good seers could tell the whole truth, and the bad seers could only tell the sides that suit them.
For the liars, the good ones could be the first to interact with those already influenced in order to break the lie they are considering the truth. Then the seers come in and reveal the actual truth.
The plot thickens.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Aug 22, 2016 23:52:15 GMT -5
Perhaps some special individuals could be both chaos theorists and truth seers, i.e. oracles, and a few others both chaos Ts and illusionists, self proclaimed as "masters" and "leaders" etc.
Maybe the illusionist could be the "Pragmatists Guild", proclaiming the truth seers as hopeless idealists incapable of dealing with how things "really" are, only wishing for pie in the sky "impossibilities". Other illusionist would simply blend into lawyers, politicians and business folk etc. The pragmatists may be always suspect, but their relentless discourse prevents firm grasps of their culpabilities.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Aug 23, 2016 1:25:36 GMT -5
" A well meaning necro with a heart who brings peoples' loved ones back to life for a short time, but is feared and hated for trying to do good where the holy ones refused. Seeing ones late betrothed walking and talking would certainly be extremely jarring, even if the necromancer was trying to help... Poor necro..."
Sounds pretty great for an anime... I'd watch it.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 25, 2016 9:30:15 GMT -5
Maybe the illusionist could be the "Pragmatists Guild", proclaiming the truth seers as hopeless idealists incapable of dealing with how things "really" are, only wishing for pie in the sky "impossibilities". Other illusionist would simply blend into lawyers, politicians and business folk etc. The pragmatists may be always suspect, but their relentless discourse prevents firm grasps of their culpabilities. "The Truth Seers aren't able to enact change, because they only see what is, not what could be, what we want to be. The Truth Seers are fools occupied only by what is in front of them. Come with me and see what we can do, together." I like the idea of them just constantly running their mouths, talking to anyone who would listen-- kind of a mass effect by a thousand cuts. The TS would be much slower to react to the lies, but far more influential in how many people they can affect at any one time. By the time the TS can rectify the situation, much of the damage would already be done. |
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Post by tenbsmith on Aug 25, 2016 13:15:25 GMT -5
I like where you guys are taking this. Works a bear, so I don't have time to play along for now.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 25, 2016 16:13:50 GMT -5
What if a Seer learns the truth to something that would unravel the entire kingdom? A betrayal, or a plot of some sort...
I see that Necromancer as someone who never status in one place, but always has his ears to the ground. Should he hear of a wrongful death, or a tragic incident that left little closure he would go and at least try to give it to them, or grant one last evening with their loved one. I could see that going one of two ways: he is feared, hated, and treated as a pariah. Or, and the one he so desperately seeks-- he would be loved for it. He could bring a widow the words she never heard, or a child their father they never met or lost too soon.
I kinda want to write about this poor guy...
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Post by Officer Genious on Aug 25, 2016 19:53:50 GMT -5
What if a Seer learns the truth to something that would unravel the entire kingdom? A betrayal, or a plot of some sort... I see that Necromancer as someone who never status in one place, but always has his ears to the ground. Should he hear of a wrongful death, or a tragic incident that left little closure he would go and at least try to give it to them, or grant one last evening with their loved one. I could see that going one of two ways: he is feared, hated, and treated as a pariah. Or, and the one he so desperately seeks-- he would be loved for it. He could bring a widow the words she never heard, or a child their father they never met or lost too soon. I kinda want to write about this poor guy... I don't get it. How do you simply want to write something instead of making it an effort to get words on a page? I can get excited just fine, but thinking about putting work into it kills my flow like the Hoover Dam. |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 25, 2016 20:31:54 GMT -5
Find something you want to write so bad that you actually want to put pen to paper. That's why I started writing fiction here...
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