fela
Curator
Posts: 71
|
Post by fela on Jan 12, 2012 9:11:39 GMT -5
fela -- how would it get from the nw to the se in the downtown gate area? by using the gate? if that is what you mean, then that is not something i'm interested in adding, honestly, i feel that it is invalided by several design goals. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. I meant from SOUTH/WEST of the wall in the northwestern part of the sector to the same side (SOUTH) of the wall in the southeastern part of the sector. No passing through gate involved, but the outer side of the wall is an obstacle that prevents movement via the diagonal arrow. The most common request was for aiming for the precise edge of the map when moving diagonally? For example when i'm at the northern border, 10 steps away from the eastern, moving southeast will move me ALL the way south and in the end add 10 diagonal steps. The only way of actually moving 10 steps diagonally southeast from where I started is either tapping on your precise target spot or moving 10s , stopping and moving 10e. I.e. twice the number of steps (and interruption probability.) I'm not disputing that, but maybe you misunderstood. Firstly, sector migration with 'huge bends' (i.e. around large obstacles) doesn't work at all right now. Secondly, even if it worked: Let's say i want to move from the NW part of my sector to the next eastern sector and there's a wall partly cutting through the sector inbetween. For the first part of a possible movement solution there is no difference, I need to get past that wall, so I will move SE to the edge of said wall. Now for the reminder of my movement, there's a huge difference if i'm aiming for the spot that is closest to where i'm standing NOW or to where i was standing when i started my movement (THEN). If i move to the closest spot to NOW i will move straight east. If i move to the closest spot to THEN, i will move northeast. Depending on if moving diagonally or straight makes a difference, this may actually be the same distance in game terms, but geometrically and psychologically it's an immense difference. |
|
fela
Curator
Posts: 71
|
Post by fela on Jan 12, 2012 9:15:29 GMT -5
I'd like the directional arrows to work differently as well. Right now, if you click on the arrow the game detects whether you can get to the next neighbourhood in that direction, and, if you cannot, doesn't move you. And, in particular, it doesn't work if you are on the north, south, or eastern edge of the map -- though interestingly enough it does work on the west side to mean 'please get me to the other side of the canal'. What I would like is a way to set the arrows to mean 'please move me in that general direction' all the way out to the new neighbourhood if that works, but just until you run into whatever obstacle is preventing that if you cannot. That would be my preferred interpretation of the directional keys either, as long as 'obstacle' is not just a house, but a wall that completely cuts off the next sector. I think that's also what you mean, though, it's just not perfectly clear. |
|
|
|
Post by grävling on Jan 12, 2012 10:05:59 GMT -5
Sorry to not be clear. Yes, that is what I mean -- I want to go around houses and the like, it's things I cannot go around -- walls, canals where there is no bridge -- that I just want to bang up against.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2012 11:27:10 GMT -5
fela -- how would it get from the nw to the se in the downtown gate area? by using the gate? if that is what you mean, then that is not something i'm interested in adding, honestly, i feel that it is invalided by several design goals. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. I meant from SOUTH/WEST of the wall in the northwestern part of the sector to the same side (SOUTH) of the wall in the southeastern part of the sector. No passing through gate involved, but the outer side of the wall is an obstacle that prevents movement via the diagonal arrow. The most common request was for aiming for the precise edge of the map when moving diagonally? For example when i'm at the northern border, 10 steps away from the eastern, moving southeast will move me ALL the way south and in the end add 10 diagonal steps. The only way of actually moving 10 steps diagonally southeast from where I started is either tapping on your precise target spot or moving 10s , stopping and moving 10e. I.e. twice the number of steps (and interruption probability.) I'm not disputing that, but maybe you misunderstood. Firstly, sector migration with 'huge bends' (i.e. around large obstacles) doesn't work at all right now. Secondly, even if it worked: Let's say i want to move from the NW part of my sector to the next eastern sector and there's a wall partly cutting through the sector inbetween. For the first part of a possible movement solution there is no difference, I need to get past that wall, so I will move SE to the edge of said wall. Now for the reminder of my movement, there's a huge difference if i'm aiming for the spot that is closest to where i'm standing NOW or to where i was standing when i started my movement (THEN). If i move to the closest spot to NOW i will move straight east. If i move to the closest spot to THEN, i will move northeast. Depending on if moving diagonally or straight makes a difference, this may actually be the same distance in game terms, but geometrically and psychologically it's an immense difference. First, I disagree. Second, I do not understand your request. Regarding the request I was satisfying, the comments and e-mails definitely say it is solved. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2012 11:29:23 GMT -5
fela -- how would it get from the nw to the se in the downtown gate area? by using the gate? if that is what you mean, then that is not something i'm interested in adding, honestly, i feel that it is invalided by several design goals. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. I meant from SOUTH/WEST of the wall in the northwestern part of the sector to the same side (SOUTH) of the wall in the southeastern part of the sector. No passing through gate involved, but the outer side of the wall is an obstacle that prevents movement via the diagonal arrow. I must not understanding what you are saying. If there is a wall across the sector, then there is no path that can be made. I have attached a copy of the map of the gateway if that helps us discuss. It seems like the path you describe is BLOCKED by a wall. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2012 11:33:44 GMT -5
The most common request was for aiming for the precise edge of the map when moving diagonally? For example when i'm at the northern border, 10 steps away from the eastern, moving southeast will move me ALL the way south and in the end add 10 diagonal steps. The only way of actually moving 10 steps diagonally southeast from where I started is either tapping on your precise target spot or moving 10s , stopping and moving 10e. I.e. twice the number of steps (and interruption probability.). Correct, based on raw counts was one of our most high-value return on requests satisfied changes. A minimal amount of work (a day or so) to make a lot of people (who are indeed e-mail me) happy. I guess there is some blow back going on here, but I'm pretty certain we can explain or patch our way to an overall increase in player enjoyment. Sorry that so far you seem to be really negative about the change. I hope we can get on the same page soon. I do not agree with your assessment of the movement on the northern border. One of the key things to consider is how you are able to control the path and the region of the path. Previously region transitions would occur in the path system without user control. That and a number of other CPU inefficiency elims, player control and path walk performance adjustments were also made. Hopefully you can start to see what really changed. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2012 11:36:29 GMT -5
Now for the reminder of my movement, there's a huge difference if i'm aiming for the spot that is closest to where i'm standing NOW or to where i was standing when i started my movement (THEN). If i move to the closest spot to NOW i will move straight east. If i move to the closest spot to THEN, i will move northeast. Depending on if moving diagonally or straight makes a difference, this may actually be the same distance in game terms, but geometrically and psychologically it's an immense difference. It is the same in terms of the game, and I'm not sure that we can measure the psychological impact from just a few player's reactions. Keeping in mind that I play this game A LOT and I am a player too. We all are. |
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Jan 12, 2012 11:52:57 GMT -5
I know I highly prefer the new implementation of the arrows and do not think I would be happy if it just "moved me in that direction." Just weighing in as another player who spends way too many hours in Cyber Knights.
|
|
|
|
Post by grävling on Jan 12, 2012 18:37:58 GMT -5
Any way we can get the arrows to mean 'just walk in that direction' as an option? I honestly want to use the arrows to navigate around the NBZ, and I really find the restriction 'the arrows are for navigating to the next neighbourhood only' in the NBZ to be a silly restriction. Indeed, I like this way of navigating around the NBZ far more than any other system of navigating I have seen on any android game. The alternatives seem to be to make some sort of circular D-pad thing. I never liked the D-pad idea on game consoles, so emulating what I thought was a poor design in the first place is not my idea of fun. Or there is the approach taken by block rogue -- market.android.com/details?id=com.buzzmonkey.BlockRogue&hl=enyou put your finger anywhere on the screen and move it, and the player char moves one char that direction. This is only slightly better than the system used by Andor's Trail -- www.appbrain.com/app/andors-trail/com.gpl.rpg.AndorsTrailwhere you have to tap one square to the NSEW of where you stand in order to move. Both of these ways of moving get very tedious, quickly. Indeed, I think that the single best thing that Andor's trail could do to improve the game is to use your D-pad. A few other games have written their own navigational widgets -- Legends Arcana www.appbrain.com/app/legends-arcana/com.littlekillerz.legendsarcanacomes to mind. I like that idea, but I think it only works if you play the game holding your phone in two hands and using your thumb to navigate, and I don't like using my thumb. It defaults back to the tap in the direction you want to move for people who don't want to use thier thumbs. Deadly dungeons market.android.com/details?id=DeadlyDungeons.App&hl=enhas directional buttons.They aren't hard to use, but not as easy as the ones here. So I think that this way of moving, which as far as I know is unique to this game, is a real hit, and something that I would like ending up being the standard for how to navigate in android games. I just think that it is superior to the other things I have tried. But I find it superior only when I can use the keys to mean 'proceed in this direction, going around obstacles when need be, until you reach the next neighbourhood' -- because I can then walk that way for a while, cancel the walk and pick a new direction, all very quickly. It stops working when for some reason you cannot reach the next neighbourhood in the direction you want to walk. Then you have to zoom the game out, scroll over to someplace that you can walk to, tap on that spot, and wait for your character, now often off screen, to show up. Then adjust again. All of this seems to be an effort to keep players from having the experience of walking as far as they can in a neighbourhood and finding out that there is a wall there that blocks them from continuting in that direction to the next neighbourhood -- i.e. precisely the experience they would have if they walked to the next neighbourhood and then saw that there was a great big wall blocking further progress in that direction. Personally,. I don't find such discoveries to be all that irritating, but I do find the inability to say 'just go west for a bit, I intend to stop you before you get so far as you cannot go any further' to be most irritating. You are saving me from a problem I don't mind all that much at the cost of giving me a problem doing something I want to do all the time. Maybe there is a way to keep both groups happy. tap a directional arrow that leads to a barrier between it and the next neighbourhood -- or to the edge of the world -- and get the vibrating 'nothing doing'. Tap _again_ indicating that you know very well there is problem in getting to the next neighbourhood but you want to go that direction _anyway_ and have the game march you that way, as per your orders, going around obstacles such as buildigns as usual. |
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2012 3:10:12 GMT -5
I have played all of the referenced games and many more.
Software development is a series of careful steps so as to not destroy the momentum.
Phone CPU, Screens, Touch UI and all the factors that make good mobile game development hard. Keeping the game going on the 850 devices we support and 450+ screen configurations we render on is no simple feat.
I understand that what you are describing seems simple, I know, I get it, I really do.
I really appreciate you pointing out other games that do a better job of movement systems than CyberKnights and please, be aware that I'm playing and downloading too -- not working in a vacuum believing that inadequate system we have today is sufficient.
I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions, it always helps to have another opinion and suggestion for consideration.
Both the first and last request are not easily accomplished within the parameters and restrictions established for our efforts.
Hopefully as we continue to extend the movement and path generation system we will have more and more people who write in about how happy they are. We will keep working that direction.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2012 3:12:45 GMT -5
All of this seems to be an effort to keep players from having the experience of walking as far as they can in a neighbourhood and finding out that there is a wall there that blocks them from continuting in that direction to the next neighbourhood -- i.e. precisely the experience they would have if they walked to the next neighbourhood and then saw that there was a great big wall blocking further progress in that direction. Personally,. I don't find such discoveries to be all that irritating, but I do find the inability to say 'just go west for a bit, I intend to stop you before you get so far as you cannot go any further' to be most irritating. You are saving me from a problem I don't mind all that much at the cost of giving me a problem doing something I want to do all the time. Nope that's not the goal at all. Interesting take on the situation, but the reasons you outline didn't current codebase into the issue at all. |
|
|
|
Post by grävling on Jan 13, 2012 3:54:00 GMT -5
I would like to clarify that I think that the movement system in CK is superior to that of the games that I referred to.
But the whole thing leaves me quite puzzled. I have a rather good imagination, but if the reason I assumed you wrote the movement system the way you did, wasn't to avoid having people walk into walls, or to the sea border, or discover that there was no way to get to the neighbourhood 1 west of here by going west, then for the life of me I cannot figure out what purpose is being served by this behaviour.
A concrete example. I am right now standing in front of the data terminal in the Harbor District. I want go go south to Boston Harbor. But when I get there, I want to be east of the wall that runs between the Water and Fuel Storage facility and Chants Bar, because otherwise I will just run into wall, and have to back up and go around. Thus going directly S is right out. So what I would liketo do is to tap the west key, and then go west until I think, 'there, that's enough' at which point I will stop and go south. If I try this, the phone just vibrates. So instead I have to scroll the view a whole lot to the east and then tap on some spot there, and wait for my character to walk over to that point. Then I can type S and have things work.
Note that if there had been a neighbourhood to the east of the Harbor District, this would work exactly as I wanted.
So I am left wondering why you want it differently. Or is it difficult to code it as I wanted? I assumed that because walking to where I tap, even when where I tap is the east-most edge of the accessible world, that having the keypad work like this would be no problem. Is this a mistaken assumption, and it is somehow hard to do this?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2012 4:24:07 GMT -5
There are many compromises when you build software in stages. Mobile games are especially complex in this regard.
I'm getting a lot of feedback on the controls and we're definitely working on improving it.
This behavior is a low CPU and uses an algorithm I have implemented many times.
The current movement system is a compromise of many different features and the replacements are still in internal prototyping.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2012 4:28:19 GMT -5
Also, in closing, I play the game. A lot and I don't use Taxis, ever. I navigate the entire zone on foot.
I know about the issues. I know, I do. Maybe try ST RPG for a while, the movement system there has been fully tuned to match the game's play pace.
|
|
fela
Curator
Posts: 71
|
Post by fela on Jan 13, 2012 4:35:00 GMT -5
gräfling: I don't think you can interpret the movement system as driven by the 'goal' not to run into walls. The way it works right now is simply, that you're moving towards a precise square. And if there is a wall blocking off the next sector, the system can not FIND a valid square, and thus the movement doesn't happen. (In that context, I don't know why moving around obstacles isn't possible, though, for example in Aztek Global, where you can move almost nowhere from Frontline Medical Warehouse.)
|
|
