First impressions from a newcomer

[pjft]

Hi guys,

First post here, so bear with me. I had downloaded the free versions of Cyber Knights, star trader and Templar Assault a while ago, but had never invested enough time in them - in all fairness, the looks and lack of animations of the games never really attracted me much.

Still, I recently read an interview from the Trese brothers on Pocket Tactics, I believe, and I ended up buying the three Elite versions of the games and finally decided to start playing them. I started by Cyber Knights, and I'll echo many of the comments done here in the forums about it. I believe it is a very interesting and engaging game, but I'd be lying if I didn't have to force myself to stick with it through the - many - rough times at the beginning.

The good:

- I think it's a promising world, and a very ambitious project. For all the things that are still being developed, and all the "rougher" edges, I still can say that I will keep at it for a while, since I kind of like the vibe. I really want to be engaged by this.

The "less good":

- The game isn't very newcomer friendly. The first thing I did was to go to the Los V den, where they told me to get in touch with Kas, and they said they gave me the contacts on a chip. Still, I wasn't able to find her contacts on my contact list, nor was I even told how should I contact her at all. After fiddling a bit, and playing a few other contracts I found by chance in a store, I suddenly noticed a chip in my inventory, which I had to use for the single purpose of adding the contact to the contact list. Is there a reason for the contact not to be added to my contact list? There should at least be a mention by the person who gives me the chip that "I should use it to get the contact, and I should go to a terminal to call her". That would have been great.
- The controls aren't very good, in all fairness. I have a very hard time navigating the world, because sometimes the character doesn't want to move to where I'm sending him to - and the cell phone just vibrates. but if I somehow click it a few squares to the side, it will suddenly work. Also, the arrows won't really work in these situations. These are not situations where I have a wall in front of me. For instance, if I'm standing in front of the Star Traders Club, clicking the left arrow will vibrate.
- The moving assistance is great when it works. Sometimes the option in the map to "Click again to set off on foot" shows up, and that works marvels. However, why does it not show up all the time, if there's a way to get there - even if it is very convoluted? At least give me a message of why it's hard to compute, so I have to explore a bit, but that was frustrating to sort out when I had to go to the Star Traders Club for a contract. I sincerely thought I had to find some sort of key to get into that area - only to later on learn that I could reach it through a long detour over to the top of the map. I'm fine with exploring and navigating, but it's kind of hard with the controls feeling so fiddly.
- Finally, I'll say that the character faces are a bit underwhelming, as well as the character animations. I'm not going to complain a lot about it, but in all fairness, I think it should be mentioned - I know that the brothers mentioned they got these comments from time to time, and while the art is reasonable if you are already into the game and engaged by it, I feel that it might put off others.

Suggestions:

- Have the "mini-map grid" (i.e. the one with the yellow square and sometimes the red square for jobs) in the "map" screen (the one where we can see all sections of New Boston), so that we know where we are scrolling to. sometimes it's hard to find the right place to go for a job.
- Any thoughts on a small joystick/thumb d-pad? Either that, or please make the navigation work all the time using the map and clicking the destination twice, and not just "sometimes".
- The combat isn't quite explained - even reading the manual. Why is it that in some turns the opponents don't move? And what do each of the defending options mean?

Still, by all means, please take these comments with a grain of salt. I'm sure that most of these "annoyances" are just growing pains, and I'm looking forward to overcoming them, so by all means share your comments.

Cheers, and looking forward to playing more of the game!

Paulo

[grävling]

May 7, 2012 5:00:05 GMT -5 pjft said:

- The combat isn't quite explained - even reading the manual. Why is it that in some turns the opponents don't move? And what do each of the defending options mean?

Paulo

Welcome to the forums.

The opponents don't move for 2 reasons. a) (most common) they are out of action points and b) sometimes there is no clear path to reach you -- it's generally blocked by one of their buddies. They don't charge along following -- so they wait.

see my long post yesterday for what the defending options mean startradersrpg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ckrpgtalk&action=display&thread=2238

[nemesis]

Howdy Paulo!

Alot of what you said is true. The game has alot of pros and cons but one thing stands out for me:

The Trese Brothers listen to player feedback ;D

Because of that, you feel like you have a hand in developing this game and that for me is the biggest plus.

Enjoy the game and welcome to the forums. Feel free to browse through the forum discussions to find the answers you seek

[nemesis]

Here is the interview Paulo mentioned:

pockettactics.com/2012/04/27/tactical-chat-the-trese-brothers/

[pjft]

Wow - thanks for the warm welcome grävling and nemesis!

Indeed, I'll read the post you mentioned about defending, and I'll try to assess why the opponents aren't moving, the next time around. What do you mean "they are out of APs"? Shouldn't they get their APs back every turn?

Also, can we move and attack in the same turn if we have enough remaining APs? When moving the only actions I seem to get are "Abort" and "Finalize", so it makes me feel I'm finishing my turn. Unless I'm missing something, which might also be the case

I got the impression from the interview that the Trese brothers do listen to player feedback - and that was exactly the reason why I bought the Elite versions immediately - I'm all for people who decide to follow their dreams and follow them passionately.

As such, I do hope that my comments aren't perceived as overly negative, because that is not what I'm trying to get across, by any means!

Cheers,
Paulo

[LordofSyn]

Excellent Article. I am all for a 4x in ST!!
I have said it numerous times, the biggest reason I have stuck around is that TB actually listens to us. I started with ST too, but found my Nirvana in CK.

Then I found the forums...but the biggest kicker was getting a datafile after a particularly rough Early game fight, and that datafile actually was a text dump from the forums.

Being an old gamer, ( yes I was alive when D&D first came out); two of the biggest drawbacks to electronic RPGs is the 1) Linear gameplay due to storyline (meaning that your actions don't change much of the story, unlike Tabletop PnP RPGs; where a good GM can roll with the flow of the game and still allow for the wonders of players' imaginations).
2) You are in someone elses head, but they can't hear you...allow me to explain. In PnP gaming, you are essentially all in each other's heads, all combining creative energies to create a world; and powering that suspension of disbelief is an agreed upon Mythos that evolves with the gaming troupe. Not every group plays the same games the same ways. "House Rules" allow for the troupe to make changes to what and how they play, even on the fly. in electronic RPGs, you are playing the labor of love of one to many people. They paint the world, give it life, and essentially have to guide the players decisions, and even predict what the players might do in contextual situations. It is rougher on the GM, because usually that layer of communication is missing.

We may not have instant gratification right now, and quite frankly we do not need it. Since August of 2011 I have seen many many changes to CK, even seen the gang envy dwindle down...but I am still happy because every time I boot the game up, I know that even though I cannot see the TB GM at any given time; they will still hear my voice.
Any gamer will tell you, having the ability to not only contact the developers, but also see requests come to life, is one of the Holy Grails of gaming. (We all don't have the abilities to make our own games, so any level of "ownership" is a massive plus).

[grävling]

May 7, 2012 5:47:53 GMT -5 pjft said:

Indeed, I'll read the post you mentioned about defending, and I'll try to assess why the opponents aren't moving, the next time around. What do you mean "they are out of APs"? Shouldn't they get their APs back every turn?

No. They get their APs back every *round*. Rounds are divided into turns. How many turns you get per round is dependent on how many AP you have. How many squares you can move in each round is dependent on your athletics.

Different characters have different characteristics. So, if a red-hatted gang boss has taken his first turn in the current round to move closer to you, you don't have to worry about him attacking you for the rest of this turn. He's done. He's spent his whole turns' worth of AP getting close to you. Same thing with Hyper Punks, Thugs, Lightwings, Riot Stars -- many monsters. There is no 'next turn in this round' for all of them -- they only have enough AP to do 1 thing per round, move or attack you.

But a dog moves differently. Dogs have enough AP to do two things. If a dog moves beside you, in its first round of this turn, it is going to still have enough AP left over to give you a good bite when it next gets to move in turn 2 of this round. So if the turn starts, and you move somewhere (your round 1, turn 1) , and then a red hatted boss and a dog both move to squares adjacent to you(their turn 1, round 1s), *kill the dog*, or *move away from the dog* or else get bitten. The dog has 'round 1 turn 2 coming up' while the red hatted boss doesn't. If the dog isn't adjacent to you when his round 1 turn 2 comes around, then he will use it to move adjacent to you -- or as far as he can towards you if you are far enough away.

Yakuza Assassins work pretty much the same way, except that they don't need to be adjacent to you to shoot you, and they usually have 3 turns every round -- but they only have enough AP to shoot you one time -- the other two they can use for moving. So if a Samurai has already shot you, and it is his turn again, and you are still in range, he will wait -- not enough AP to shoot you a second time, and no reason to move.

Corpsmen are worse, in that they have enough AP to shoot you multiple times in the same round.

And worst of all are drones, those flying grey things. They have enough AP that they get 4 and 5 turns in a round and they will attack you with every one they can.

Also, can we move and attack in the same turn if we have enough remaining APs? When moving the only actions I seem to get are 'Abort'; and 'Finalize' so it makes me feel I'm finishing my turn. Unless I'm missing something, which might also be the case

No, you pick 'Move' or 'Attack' and spend a move's worth or an attack's worth of AP, for this turn. If you still have enough AP for another move or attack, and it is greater than or equal to 3 AP, then you will get another turn in this round. Once everybody has run out of AP, the next round starts.

Let me know if this explanation makes sense. If I get good enough at explaining, I am going to write a guide to killing things in the NBZ. I don't think I am quite there yet.

[pjft]

Gravling,

That makes absolute sense, and the explanation was pretty much crystal clear. I imagine that the popup at the start is each character's APs, then.

Wow.

Mind-blown! Thanks Off to a new way of understanding and playing the game.

Also, the defending guide was useful as well, though I read it quickly during my work day, have to read through it again now

Thanks!

[fallen]

pjft - welcome to the forums. So my nickname isn't confusing, I am Andrew Trese -- one of the two brothers on the forum. We take all sorts of feedback. Thanks for yours. I think right now one of my biggest concerns is the first 5 minutes for a new player. I want it to be smoother and more engaging from the first minute, so your feedback is very timely.

1. V-Chips... yeah, good question. Why don't they convert to a contact automatically. I will check into that.
2. As alluded to in the Pocket Tactics article, I am the artist. I do try very hard, but have been doing art for less than 1.5 years now. I am constantly coming back around and trying to revise older pieces, but there is a lot to cover, especially considering creating new art for new projects as well. The current revising project under way is trying to re-do certain parts of the NBZ tileset so that the map looks cooler. I think good progress has already been made here.

Thanks for understand that we are still in a BETA stage with CK. We know that the BETA has been running for more than a year, but so much of the vision of CK is still under development. We really appreciate your support!!

EDIT: We are constantly trying to better the movement system, and I will talk to Cory about a more connected mapping system opportunity. It looks like the other forum members have the rest of your questions in hand!

[pjft]

Hi fallen,

Thanks for the heads up. By all means, I will totally empathize with the fact this is a beta, even if stays like that for the next 5 years I also do realize that you're trying to balance improving the art skills, and developing a portfolio of sprites, textures and art for other projects. I totally see where you're coming from, so don't worry about that.

If you're interested in looking into the first 5 minutes of the player, I can certainly try to go back from the start, and write up everything that I think, and my thought pattern that goes through what I'm experiencing, and report on it.

I've worked in software development in the past, and I conducted a fair share of usability tests, as well as worked in a few projects to ensure that new users would stay with the software for the first 15 minutes until the end of the first tutorial, because after that they were more likely to keep on using it, so I'd love to try to do this and share it with you, if you'd like it. I'd imagine that, given that I started to play the game just a couple of days ago - and so far only went through a couple of contracts - I would be able to provide a moderately "newbie" view to the game, and would try to do it in the most unbiased way I could.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers,

Paulo

Let me know if that would be useful.

[grävling]

May 7, 2012 14:40:34 GMT -5 pjft said:

Gravling,

That makes absolute sense, and the explanation was pretty much crystal clear. I imagine that the popup at the start is each character's APs, then.

Wow.

Mind-blown! Thanks Off to a new way of understanding and playing the game.

Also, the defending guide was useful as well, though I read it quickly during my work day, have to read through it again now

Thanks!

Mind-blown is what we aim for here. Glad you are enjoying things.

The Popup at the start says everybody's AP, yes, sorted in who has initiative order for all of the turns in this round. So if you are the first player listed, you get to go first, for your turn 1. then all the others get their turn 1s. Then those who have enough AP for a second turn get their turn 2s in the same order. it also lists their physical and mental health. But it is the AP that is the crucial information.

When a new round starts, the initiative is re-rolled and there is a new order for their turns.

You can buy cyberware that makes it more likely you will be on top in initiative, or just increase your stats. I don't know which ones effect this -- perception seems a likely bet -- but after a very short time you will tend to be #1 in all initiative screens, even if you don't invest in cyberware.

In winning battles here the most important skill to invest in is 'athletics' -- it determines how many squares you can move per turn. The most important attributes to train are dexterity, intelligence and perception -- because AP == 3 + (int + per + dex)/2

And it is your mobility, not your gunning and smashing ability that makes for survivability. After you have *plenty* athletics and AP -- then you can start spending serious XP on getting other skills above 3. Before then, well, it is your lack of mobility that gets you killed not your lack of brawling or firearms. (But if you begin with stats less than 3, by all means spend the points to get them up to that).

Happy Hunting!

[pjft]

Hmm...

There seem to be a lot of small details I should consider then! I have to find a balance between finding out things on my own and actually reading through these forums, without spoiling it too much for me

I'm reading your formula there:

AP == 3 + (int + per + dex)/2

and I'm wondering where can I find a quick reference of all attributes, stats, and what rolls against what. The Templar Assault manual was quite thorough in that regard, but I didn't seem to find the same detail in CK's one.

Thanks, and happy hunting to you as well

[grävling]

There really isn't a comparable guide. What you get as 'Show Help' in the opening screen is it. That formula is in there, however.

The other thing you need to know is that stunning your enemies displeases the neighbourhoods much less than shooting them. So your heat goes up less if you disable and do not kill your opponents -- also if you take 'stealth exit' rather than 'normal exit' when you leave a battle. You will miss out on loot, though.

Loot is interesting to newbies, because it contains information files. Once you have seen all the loot once, though, it is 'stealth exit every time' time. Because heat is your enemy in this game.

Have fun exploring. It's a large, detailed world out there.

[Cory Trese]

This is Cory Trese, lead developer -- welcome to the forums.

#1 -- thank you for your honest feedback.

#2 -- I honestly have to agree strongly with the statements "not newcomer friendly" and "navigation controls need work"

It is on me to solve these issues and I want you to know that I am aware of them and actively looking for solutions in the Android source code for CK.

[Cory Trese]

I might have fixed it