XP maxed?

[Jason]

First of all I would like to say this game is great. Now on to my problem...for the past few days I have noticed that I stopped gaining xp. Does this max out at a certain level? For clarity, I purchased the elite version. Thank you.

Jason

[grävling]

First of all, welcome to the Forums.

There are two main things that keep you from gaining XP.

1. You are exhausted. You do not gain XP when you are tired.

2. Your implants. Each implant that you purchase has something called its Human Delta Value (DV). These are cumulative. When you look at your own character, you should see something like:
DV: Full Cyborg[50]

The larger the number in the brackets, the more cyberware you have installed, and the more intrusive the cyberware is. Better implants -- the ones that give you the most in abilities -- also cost the most in DV. And the larger the DV number, the less likely it is that you will gain experience from missions, encounters and what have you. The way it works is like this: Every time you have a chance to gain an XP point, the game rolls a 300-sided die. Then it checks to see if the score is over your DV. If it is, then you get the point. If it is less then you don't. So the higher your DV, the harder it is to get experience. This is the price that you pay for becoming less human and more machine-like -- it is through your humanity that you gain XP and with significant cyberware, well, there just isn't that much humanity left in you. Once you hit 300 DV -- and you can reach levels much higher than this -- there is no chance whatsoever for increasing your XP.

As a practical matter, each CK can have an unaugmented maximum of 9 for any attribute and 12 for any skill. Each profession has 1 skill which they can raise to 16 -- hackers: hacking, sniper:stealth, gunslinger: firearms, cybersword: brawling, agentx: athletics, face: negotiation. If you have reached these levels the only way you can increase stats is with implants. But I don't think this is what your problem is.

Also, when you reach higher levels, certain encounters are deemed 'too easy' for you to learn from them. So I have a few high level characters who have no cyberware installed at all, and sometimes when they escape out of fights immediately they don't get any experience for that. It's too easy for them to do.

But too high a DV seems the most likely culprit. Have the doctor take out any Cyberware you no longer need.

Let me know how it works out,
Grävling

[Jason]

Problem solved. Thanks!

[grävling]

You're welcome. See you after surgery!

[darthmeow504]

I'm not really thrilled with this mechanic. It's a concept that started in the otherwise excellent Cyberpunk 2020 and has infected cyber games ever since... what good does it do to penalize players for playing the theme of the game? We're here to play cyborgs and get the newest and coolest gadgets in our characters, not to play normal humans. We are stuck with normal humanity every day.

Basically, penalizing characters for cyberware in a cyberpunk game is like penalizing characters in a superhero game for superpowers. It's anti-thematic.

[koles]

low-tech implatns are quite cheap and they can boost you really really good
+1 stealt/firearms/brawling 1600Y
+1 body - 250Y
+1 body and +1 defense - 1200Y
+1d6 initiative - 4000Y

playing with them at start is quite easlier but I like the idea of no money cost - easlier fight but harder earn exp. That make some balance between fighting characters and those who try to avoid fights at all cost.

anyway this penatly is no big - even with 150DV you still easily gain exp - just slower

[grävling]

Aug 20, 2012 2:37:56 GMT -5 darthmeow504 said:

I'm not really thrilled with this mechanic. It's a concept that started in the otherwise excellent Cyberpunk 2020 and has infected cyber games ever since... what good does it do to penalize players for playing the theme of the game? We're here to play cyborgs and get the newest and coolest gadgets in our characters, not to play normal humans. We are stuck with normal humanity every day.

Basically, penalizing characters for cyberware in a cyberpunk game is like penalizing characters in a superhero game for superpowers. It's anti-thematic.

First of all, welcome to the forums.

I disagree. If XP is something that you gain because you learn, improve, and
train, then if you let the hardware do it for you, well then, the hardware cannot
learn. I think the mechanic is fine as it is, but would be better if certain implants were
'gives you +2 in xxx to a max of 8'. Which means if you can train yourself to 8, you
should get this implant removed. Top-of-the-line implants, of course, would give you
your bonuses no matter what level you reached.

I think that the conflict between 'how much xp am I willing to pay in order to get
better skills right now' is a source of dramatic tension in the game. If it were removed,
then the game would reduce to 'get more money. buy more implants, so I can get more
money and buy more implants'. I would find this mechanic rather too simplistic to
be a lot of fun. Of course, you could spice things up by allowing a wide range of
implants but only one of a certain sort for every piece of your body .....

ooops, we already have this in the Star Traders Game, and it is called 'customising your
ship'. I strongly suggest you try this game, where money->better ship implants
is basic to your success. In Cyber Knights, more implants are a part of the game, but
missions --> more XP is the more fundamental mechanic. (Not that getting more XP
isn't fundamental to ST. But in CK the goal is not to kit your CK out with as many
implants you can hold -- or at least not until you cannot gain XP any more having
reached your unaugmented maxes. By that time, nothing in NBZ can trouble you
even with no implants, so why bother.)

Does this make sense?

And, again, welcome to the forums and thank you for posting. It is differences of
opinions like this about what would be the ideal gameplay that add to the creative
tension in producing games -- or any work of art. So even if the TB -- as I suspect,
but I do not speak for them -- think that removing the XP cap would diminish the
game, there is still creative tension here involved in trying to make people like you
happy. Which cannot be addressed unless people like you are around.

Would you find -- my idea -- that having some cyberware labelled as 'good to a max
of X only' make things more palatable for you? This would change your expectations
for Cyberware from 'if I buy these things I will turn myself into a God' to 'this gives
a currently-useful bonus at a price'. Or would things go better if every piece of
Cyberware said, in the same way that cigarettes have warning labels on the pack --
install this and you will lose 12% (DV:36) of your maximum potential for gaining experience?

Would you like it if DV loss was tied to game level? So that on 'easy' there is
no penalty, while on 'brutal' there is a 30% extra DV penalty? Something you could set
for yourself on 'Custom' level, so you could have all things set to Hardest, except for DV
penalty (which you could set to None). That would be a game change (increasing the DV penalty for brutal) that would make a big difference for those of us who normally play 'brutal'. And I got 30% out of the proverbial hat, just as a figure to talk about...

Through discussions like this, we can learn to make the game better. Or we can
learn there is a market for a different sort of game ....

Welcome once again, and thank you for posting.

Grävling (not one of the game's developers, in case this wasn't obvious)

Grävling

[darthmeow504]

Aug 20, 2012 4:26:36 GMT -5 grävling said:

First of all, welcome to the forums.

I disagree. If XP is something that you gain because you learn, improve, and train, then if you let the hardware do it for you, well then, the hardware cannot learn.
Grävling

Yes and no. You're still a person with a mind, of course you can learn. You shouldn't be blocked of all XP just because you're cybered up, again I reiterate that penalizing characters for cyberware in a cyberpunk game is like penalizing them for superpowers in a superhero game. It runs counter to the theme. We are here to play cyborgs, right? The fantasy of human enhancement through technology is as core to the theme as the dystopian setting and computer vistas.

This is not to say I don't want any limitations, especially realistic ones. I'm just saying an across the board penalty for cyberware, making it a general negative and encouraging less of it, is antithematic. You shouldn't penalize players for what they play your game for.

Instead of a general XP hit, I'd say that stats and abilities that are cyber-enhanced are "locked" and cannot be raised with XP unless those implants are designed to work closely with and mimic the biological function. Those systems would be more advanced and more expensive to reflect that advantage and the greater complexity and cost involved.

For example, say you get Chipped Skills - Firearms. It does everything for you, and provides a flat level, for example lvl1 chip sets you at 3, lvl2 at 5, etc. A quick way to get serious skills! Only one problem. Those aren't your skills, that's the machine doing it all for you. You can't ever learn to get better, you're stuck with what the ware gives you. If you want to improve, yank it and start from scratch or pony up the cash for better gear. Either way you're locked into the capabilities of the gear as you are relying on it and not your own natural abilities. In fact, if you're a trained marksman with Firearms skill at 7 and you install a lvl1 Firearms chip, you go DOWN to 3 as the chip system overrides your natural abilities.

However, you could skip the chip and get yourself a Smartgun Link instead which puts a targeting reticle in your cybervision and allows fire by wire, making the weapon easier to aim at any skill level. That gives you a +2 to Firearms up to level 5, where your skills are so good you no longer gain benefit from the tool. There's a better one out there that also auto-steadies your hand, that one is good for +3 up to level 6, and a really good (and really expensive) version that also subtly aligns your weapon to enhance aiming with the reticle, and that one is good for +4 up to level 7.

The difference is one is a replacement of your natural ability, the other is an enhancement. The difference is in how the implants function.

Another example, you could get Myomer Muscle Replacement that straps your 9 pound weakling frame with wicked strong artificial muscles and brings your strength to 5 right out of the box! One problem, you'll never get stronger no matter how much gym time you put in because artificial muscle doesn't work like that. You wanna get stronger, pay for better gear. The natural way of improvement went out in the trash with your original natural equipment.

On the other hand, there's a system that filters out lactic acid and supplies oxygen to the muscle tissue, and laces it with fiber strands to keep it from tearing under load. That gives you a +2 strength no matter your level and allows you to increase it, as your natural muscle is still there and this just helps it. As you build more muscle, this system makes it work better too and the bonus remains on top of the new level.


Get what I mean? It's more complicated than DV and it requires working out how each system works and what it's limitations are, but the result is more realism and a more fitting statement of "Cyberware is great but it can have downsides, select your systems with care" compared to "Gnarr, cyberware bahd!".

Thanks for listening.

[cariadoc]

Hi, First time poster but I really had to come on and comment here.

I don't think it is entirely accurate to compare it to a superhero game in that way, for the simple reason that the genre is not neccesarily all about playing cyborgs. That's like saying that as fantasy games feature magic we're all there to play a wizard. Or a vampire in supernatural/horror type games. The reality is, each genre offers many possibilities for players to explore, and this can include playing a character diametrically opposed to the genres "defining element".

In cyberpunk games, augmentation should be (and usually is) a powerfull option, but not the only way to play. Playing an unaugmented character trying to hold their own in an augmented world can be immense fun, and deeply immersive. This should be a viable option, and, in my opinion one of the marks of the best rpg's is that players can play almost any character they can concieve of within the games limitations, without being punished for not playing how the designer thought they should.

The xp penalty balances the augmented and unaugmented character to some extent, there are advantages and disadvantages to both, as well as to every shade of grade in between, but overall, the player is not punished by where on that scale they fall. Yes, massive augmentation prevents you from gaining experience at all, but the power provided by the augmentation should compensate, and if you really need to advance, strip out some of your older cyberware (you need a lot of 'ware to hit 300) and you should start to improve again.

PS, thanks for an awesome game guys.

Cariadoc

[LordofSyn]

Aug 21, 2012 9:19:41 GMT -5 darthmeow504 said:

Aug 20, 2012 4:26:36 GMT -5 grävling said:

First of all, welcome to the forums.

I disagree. If XP is something that you gain because you learn, improve, and train, then if you let the hardware do it for you, well then, the hardware cannot learn.
Grävling

Yes and no. You're still a person with a mind, of course you can learn. You shouldn't be blocked of all XP just because you're cybered up, again I reiterate that penalizing characters for cyberware in a cyberpunk game is like penalizing them for superpowers in a superhero game. It runs counter to the theme. We are here to play cyborgs, right? The fantasy of human enhancement through technology is as core to the theme as the dystopian setting and computer vistas.

This is not to say I don't want any limitations, especially realistic ones. I'm just saying an across the board penalty for cyberware, making it a general negative and encouraging less of it, is antithematic. You shouldn't penalize players for what they play your game for.

Instead of a general XP hit, I'd say that stats and abilities that are cyber-enhanced are "locked" and cannot be raised with XP unless those implants are designed to work closely with and mimic the biological function. Those systems would be more advanced and more expensive to reflect that advantage and the greater complexity and cost involved.

For example, say you get Chipped Skills - Firearms. It does everything for you, and provides a flat level, for example lvl1 chip sets you at 3, lvl2 at 5, etc. A quick way to get serious skills! Only one problem. Those aren't your skills, that's the machine doing it all for you. You can't ever learn to get better, you're stuck with what the ware gives you. If you want to improve, yank it and start from scratch or pony up the cash for better gear. Either way you're locked into the capabilities of the gear as you are relying on it and not your own natural abilities. In fact, if you're a trained marksman with Firearms skill at 7 and you install a lvl1 Firearms chip, you go DOWN to 3 as the chip system overrides your natural abilities.

However, you could skip the chip and get yourself a Smartgun Link instead which puts a targeting reticle in your cybervision and allows fire by wire, making the weapon easier to aim at any skill level. That gives you a +2 to Firearms up to level 5, where your skills are so good you no longer gain benefit from the tool. There's a better one out there that also auto-steadies your hand, that one is good for +3 up to level 6, and a really good (and really expensive) version that also subtly aligns your weapon to enhance aiming with the reticle, and that one is good for +4 up to level 7.

The difference is one is a replacement of your natural ability, the other is an enhancement. The difference is in how the implants function.

Another example, you could get Myomer Muscle Replacement that straps your 9 pound weakling frame with wicked strong artificial muscles and brings your strength to 5 right out of the box! One problem, you'll never get stronger no matter how much gym time you put in because artificial muscle doesn't work like that. You wanna get stronger, pay for better gear. The natural way of improvement went out in the trash with your original natural equipment.

On the other hand, there's a system that filters out lactic acid and supplies oxygen to the muscle tissue, and laces it with fiber strands to keep it from tearing under load. That gives you a +2 strength no matter your level and allows you to increase it, as your natural muscle is still there and this just helps it. As you build more muscle, this system makes it work better too and the bonus remains on top of the new level.


Get what I mean? It's more complicated than DV and it requires working out how each system works and what it's limitations are, but the result is more realism and a more fitting statement of "Cyberware is great but it can have downsides, select your systems with care" compared to "Gnarr, cyberware bahd!".

Thanks for listening.

Ok, I had to stop reading after your first paragraph. I admit that may or may not have been wise but allow me this: The two games that really helped flesh out and set the standard for the Cyberpunk you allude to also had pro/con balance mechanics built into cyberware, bioware, implants...hell you can look at another game for the mental/psychological aspect of that and nanite injection systems. The meshing of flesh and metal/ man and machine is timeless. It is also integral to the pioneering Fiction which begat Cyberpunk. To sway from that would be more foolish than ignoring the fact that its fear is integral to the spirit. Mary Shelley proved that.

[Cory Trese]

I totally agree "Cyberware is great but it can have downsides, select your systems with care." That's the message of CyberKnights, and the DV system serves that very well.

If you play SR3 to the letter of the rules, Cyber Zombies (negative essence) suffer extreme penalties, one of which is an extreme limitation on Karma.

299+ DV is "negative essence" and provides some serious penalties as well as major bonuses (both the cyberware and the Intimidation / Faction Influence bonuses.)

Cyber Knights RPG is still in active development and several key cyberware systems are not available. Stress DV, Healing Penalties, Alphaware, Betaware and Deltaware are all incomplete.

I read all of the post above and I really appreciate the input. I will continue to work to convince you that the vision I have for the game is relevant, valuable and fun. That work no doubt includes new features, most forum posts and carefully reading and researching the posts that players make.

[ncaoa]

Sept 22, 2012 15:25:29 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Cyber Knights RPG is still in active development and several key cyberware systems are not available. Stress DV, Healing Penalties, Alphaware, Betaware and Deltaware are all incomplete.

Epic.

[arashikage64]

Lol personally i dont get cyber till i have maxed outmy stats thwn the cyber improves my already maxed stats making any more xp gaoned useless and moot point :-D

[ntsheep]

Thanks to lastest update there is a good use for all that spare XP, you can now hire allies.