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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 11, 2011 16:47:59 GMT -5
I'm watching and reading! Hope for more feedback on Water-Fuel.
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Post by jerry on Mar 14, 2011 7:17:17 GMT -5
I don't really know what background lies behind the term "water-fuel", but as I understand it - you simply can't compare the technology of star travel with watering the cow/dog/cat/whatever. Perhaps it's not "normal" water as we know it. Or perhaps it really is scarce. Or perhaps both ultra high tech and scarce. Urban planets sure have the technology, but the planet surface is covered in 100% with urban zone. Try to imagine the amount of water needed to feed those gazilions of people. On that planets water-fuel might be rationed for each citizen and each captain. So you are not buying all the water on planet - but all the water you are allowed. On planets with both urban and wild zones - they might not have the technology and/or resources to process the fuel in unlimited quantities. After all, supporting life is more important than supporting star travel. And on planets with only wild zones - what if the plant needed for refinement and enrichment of the fuel is the size of a star dock? You can't take a star dock with you... Anyway - I don't complain. It's just another element of RPG/strategy game that I've to bear in mind. And the more complex the game is - the better for me. Try other space rpg/strategies on Android and you'll know what I mean. I am ashamed that I was looking for alternatives to ST RPG for a short time. There is none! (well, there is one, but it's not worth mentioning, because it's sooo simple). And if the lack of water still bothers you (which I can understand), try to replace the word "water" with "super duper ultra high tech and ultra rare water for space travel". And bear I mind that space travel is only for chosen, not for every one. That should do  |
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spike
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Post by spike on Mar 14, 2011 7:34:41 GMT -5
Sure, if you read the original post, like you I'm not sure if water - fuel is regular purified water or some kind of ultra water. It doesn't matter. If it's essential for space travel, then many different factors would all conspire to make it available along any route worth travelling.
Water-fuel is one of the most original features of ST RPG and the ST RPG backstory, but it's a little fuzzy as a concept. Since I can drive around for 2.5 years without it, and all that happens is my crew gets a bit miserable and a bit crazy, it's hard to fit it into any definition of 'fuel' that is familiar.
I was thinking of ways to reinterpet it so I could understand it, and the best I could come up with was the Spice of Dune's Guild navigators. Needed for space travel, consumed by crew - that might work better. If space transport consumed Spice in a complex way related to ship size and crew size, I could go with that better. But, even then, and in any circumstances, the key substance essential for space travel ought to be, would be, more available. This is not a question of whatever pseudoscience is used to justify/enable space travel, it's a basic feature of economics and politics. To put it another way, any planet that didn't have enough fuel available to allow ships to reliably reach it and get home, would rapidly become an economic basket case.
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Post by oldalchemist on Mar 14, 2011 8:52:59 GMT -5
How about some free rumors that detail what's up with the water/fuel? Skip it if you don't care, but for the cranky, picky, no-fun, detail-oriented folks like me, it's gold.
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spike
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Post by spike on Mar 14, 2011 8:54:39 GMT -5
Yep, I like that too. +1 to Water-fuel rumours.
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Post by jerry on Mar 14, 2011 9:08:12 GMT -5
in any circumstances, the key substance essential for space travel ought to be, would be, more available Yeah, I partially agree. I'm also trying to find out the best reasoning behing the lack of unlimited fuel. But look at the Earth. Can you fly to anyplace today? Yes - if you have the fuel. Can you buy high quality airplane (jet?) fuel anywhere? No. Can you drive your car enywhere you want? Almost (excluding rough terrain and water bodies). Can you buy gas anywhere? Surprisingly - but no. Maybe those people are not interested in you (those savages and cultists). Oh well, I know I'm stretching the facts here  But don't blame me that I love this game  |
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spike
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Post by spike on Mar 14, 2011 9:13:02 GMT -5
Urban planets sure have the technology, but the planet surface is covered in 100% with urban zone. Try to imagine the amount of water needed to feed those gazilions of people. On that planets water-fuel might be rationed for each citizen and each captain. So you are not buying all the water on planet - but all the water you are allowed. A 100% urban planet supports billions of people and is not going to miss a few tons or even a few hundred tons of water. Especially if those few hundred tons of water are their only way of having commerce with the rest of the galactic civilisation. Sure, it might be more expensive on such a planet. But only the stupidest planetary government would say "no, you can't have any fuel, so don't bother trying to trade with us". It only needs to be effectivelyunlimited quantities in relation to a single player's starship, or to all starships including NPC starships. It does not need to be infinite. Why would a mixed Urban/Wild planet have less technology? Anyway, water fuel is the most basic technology for space travel. If they don't have technology to make water fuel, or at least store it, they probably don't qualify as an Urban Zone at all. That's not an issue, you can't buy water fuel at Wild zones now anway. I'm not bothered by availability at Wild zones - Wild zones aren't populated, aren't on trade routes. There's no strong reason why they need to have fuel available. In general, you can think of specific reasons why some places might be short of fuel some of the time - and that's fine, it throws some randomness in and makes for good rumours. But in the general case, any planet with an Urban Zone needs to have sufficient fuel available, reliably, or they would be off the trade map and outside the galactic economy. |
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spike
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Post by spike on Mar 14, 2011 9:18:02 GMT -5
But look at the Earth. Can you fly to anyplace today? Yes - if you have the fuel. Can you buy high quality airplane (jet?) fuel anywhere? No. Sure. But there's no such thing as an airport, even an airfield, where you can land a jet, but then you can't buy jet fuel to take off again. And if, for some exceptional reason, they were out of jet fuel, they would warn you off from landing there. Keep in mind we can love the game, and still ask Cory to change parts of it to make it even better. |
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Post by jerry on Mar 14, 2011 10:58:44 GMT -5
Allright, you win However the irrational part of me still votes for the limited fuel. Why? Because it's more challenging this way. And I love the challenge! I haven't met a game, which I would be unable to finish on highest difficulty level... until now. Anyway, I'm surprised to see that that there areare others who vote for keeping water-fuel the way it is. |
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spike
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Post by spike on Mar 14, 2011 17:06:37 GMT -5
Yes I also like the fact that the fuel system is challenging, and I agree it adds a lot to the game. I would just rather that the challenge came from high prices rather than low availability, certainly on main trade routes. For wilderness exploring I have no problem with Captains needing to calculate their fuel needs to get in and get back on a self-sufficient basis. But I want them to have the challenge of planning without the pointless frustration of not being able to buy enough fuel. It's no fun when they can't buy enough fuel even in an Urban Zone, ahead of time, when planning their courses carefully.
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Post by ehkamp on Mar 15, 2011 13:27:44 GMT -5
I live in Iowa, the US state with the most airstrips per capita. (There's a random factoid for you!) We have many, many airfields that don't stock jet fuel or not much. I'd even venture to say most of them. Both private and municipal airstrips. (Heck, less than 10% have a tower.) The costs & risks isn't worth it to the owner. It is the pilot's responsibility to ensure they have sufficient fuel for the round-trip (with some margin of error) or plan fuel stops. The airstrips that do sell fuel are the in larger cities (with commercial airport or not) or are in the middle-of-nowhere (even for Iowa).
I think this principle could apply to game planets too. Urban Zones with significant commerce (say high Rated Trade Exchange and/or Planetary Economy) and/or are really out-of-the-way (say greater than X AU from a Fuel-rich planet) would have ample supplies of Water-Fuel.
The other planets would vary. For example, a water-based Fringe planet would always have ample fuel, but a volcano-based one wouldn't. It could make the descriptions of each planet more relevant to game play, instead of solely flavor text.
Opinions?
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Post by oldalchemist on Mar 15, 2011 13:56:06 GMT -5
I'd love to see some variation in the resources on fringe planets.
Useless plants and water on jungle planets, water and rations on ocean planets, metal and chemicals on volcanic worlds, crystals and metals on radioactive worlds, and clothing and artifacts on planets with Truffula trees.
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But don't blame me that I love this game 