|
|
Post by johndramey on Oct 27, 2013 18:28:39 GMT -5
So I got a little break from work and thought I'd come in here to post my empowered attack comments/concerns/ideas, everyone please feel free to argue with me or discuss these things.
First off, these are all subjective and, it seems to me, that I'm a bit in the minority here. I tend to use the empowered attacks much more than most of you folks, so I think I could be a little weird in my play style. On to my points.
Currently the empowered attacks are set up the be a (relatively) small SP trade off for a (relatively) large boost in melee/ranged prowess. I've jotted down all of the stats for each of the empowered attacks for levels 1 and 2, and here they are;
Outlander
Crushing blow
Level 1 - 2 SP +8 damage
Level 2 - 4 SP +16 damage
Savage Sweep
Level 1 - 2 SP +3 accuracy
Level 2 - 4 SP +6 accuracy / +5 damage
Thief
Aimed Shot
Level 1 - 3 SP +3 accuracy / +3 damage
Level 2 - 6 SP +6 accuracy / +4 damage
Torrent of Steel (Melee thief talent)
Level 1 - 3 SP +4 accuracy / +3 damage
Cleric
Smiting Blow
Level 1 - 3 SP +3 accuracy
Level 2 - 6 SP +4 accuracy / +2 damage
So we can see that the SP tends to scale directly, basically (Base SP cost) * (level). Crushing Blow gives amazing damage, but the other skills aren't too shabby. One skill that was pretty amazing (IMO) was Torrent of Steel. If you are able to properly kit out your Thief with high parry you could have a huge amount of damage output using those empowered attacks. Keeping up your SP is, at this point, not too bad. You can use potions (which are relatively plentiful) or just run back to a fire and max out everything relatively easily.
I think that there should be some kind of bigger risk/reward decision with the empowered attacks. Something like;
a) Jacking up the SP cost 1 point or so. This will make them be a little more costly in terms of SP, and make them seem a little more weighty in the decision department.
b) Maybe introducing an AP cost to them? This would be a little tricky, because you would have to totally rebalance the skill, but if done it could be very smart. As it is now you can make 3 basic attacks or 3 empowered attacks a turn, no big choice. If you could have an empowered attack with, let's say, 30% more effect than current and having an additional +1 AP cost (Crushing blow level one being 2SP cost for +10 damage but also costing 1AP) you would have a big choice. Should you make 3 basic attacks at a damage range of 30-63 damage or 2 empowered attacks with a damage range of 40-62 (carrying just a training blade and using my 30% modified damage)? Both have the same AP cost, 6 in this case, but you can see the empowered attacks have a narrower damage band giving out more guaranteed damage.
Just my idea, and I'll admit that I'm in the minority with the empowered attacks. It's just something that I realized on my third play through as I automatically moved all the basic attacks off my quick bar.
|
|
|
|
Post by evmaker on Oct 27, 2013 19:09:54 GMT -5
It may be the same for some others, but for me the main reason I only really use empowered attacks is on my outlander is because on my thief and cleric they have other things regularly using spirit, be that healing on the cleric or farsight & pick lock/detect traps on the thief, both of those are a regular spirit use that I would rather have the spirit available for them then an empowered attack.
That said I will switch to empowered attacks if needed (fighting a big group that needs to get downed faster, tougher enemies like deathkin etc..), if they had a higher SP cost I personally would be even less inclined to use them.
That said if some form of mana recovery idea (like resting) does come in, or possible changes to spirit costs (as has been mentioned about being discussed for farsight) that may be different for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by johndramey on Oct 27, 2013 20:00:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I can totally see what you are saying evmaker. The big area where I think tweaking could happen is with the Outlander as he doesn't really have any reason to not use the empowered attacks at the moment, they are just a flat upgrade in terms of everything with a little bit of SP cost tacked on. You could even build your outlander to be a more magic focused ability tank, boosting his SP and focusing on the talents. He would become a bit of a glass cannon in that situation, but still able to output huge amounts of damage. With all that said, the game is really well balanced and interesting as is. There is nothing actually wrong with any of the talents. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. |
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Oct 27, 2013 20:47:17 GMT -5
Maybe that SP/HP regen problem could find a solution in a spell : cleric could have a spell that allows it during some turns (say 3/4) but only to other, that way it becomes a strategic issue : "should I spend SP with my cleric to allow my wizard to kill those monsters but I'm not sure to be able to heal every wounded afterwards ?" It's still standing around wasting clicks and touches to try to regen  So, from my POV, if we add it, it should be added as camp with a % of wandering monster (some danger). One click, regen! Why make it any more complicated? Not promising we are adding it, just stating why I don't think anything short of a rest cycle is really in your benefit. |
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Oct 27, 2013 20:49:11 GMT -5
1) I find myself almost always using the emopowered attack. Basically, unless I'm fairly certain I can kill the enemy in one/two hits without the extra oomph of the empowered, I choose empowered every time. It seems other's aren't really doing this, but I don't really see the risk in it. My Outlander starts with 80 Spirit at level one, and a Crushing Blow/Savage Sweep takes 2 spirit to cast. That's 40 uses before I even need to think about using a potion, and more often than not I can run back to a fire if I really want to be totally efficient about using my items. The Cleric and Thief each use 3 spirit for their empowered attacks, which is really just beans. I pretty much use SP skills every round on every character unless I'm dealing a coup de grace. This is, btw, how I play. I believe that Cory also chooses to use Empowered attacks 90% of the time as well. I do this with all characters including Thief and Cleric. So, johndramey, you're in a funny minority  With us, the game designers! Empowered attacks are cheap, use them! EDIT: I do happen to know where the campsites are / how often we plan to doll them out. |
|
|
|
Post by johndramey on Oct 27, 2013 20:59:41 GMT -5
This is, btw, how I play. I believe that Cory also chooses to use Empowered attacks 90% of the time as well. I do this with all characters including Thief and Cleric. So, johndramey, you're in a funny minority With us, the game designers! Empowered attacks are cheap, use them! EDIT: I do happen to know where the campsites are / how often we plan to doll them out. Glad to see I'm in good company  It's still standing around wasting clicks and touches to try to regen So, from my POV, if we add it, it should be added as camp with a % of wandering monster (some danger). One click, regen! Why make it any more complicated? Not promising we are adding it, just stating why I don't think anything short of a rest cycle is really in your benefit. Totally agree with this. Some standard passive regen is a bad idea, imo. I love roguelikes such as nethack and what not, but HoS isn't that. I'd rather not have to worry about resting up after every encounter to top off my HP/SP. The idea of having a % encounter for resting outside of a fireplace would be... ok I guess. But I kind of like how the system is now, it's not that huge of a deal to walk back to the campsite if you want to top off everything. Also, if the alpha dungeon is any indicator, the campsites are placed at a relatively decent distance from each other. Just about the time you really start to need one, it pops up. Also, don't forget the potions. Granted, in the Alpha dungeon they seem to be handed out like candy, but I imagine we'll be able to buy them just like any other commodity. If you are running an SP heavy build you can just sacrifice some of your gold for extra SP potions. |
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Oct 27, 2013 21:17:40 GMT -5
Potion distribution will decrease, campsite distribution will be (as you pointed out) well-planned. I like not having Resting because it allows us to create scarcity areas and you'll feel them powerfully.
|
|
|
|
Post by johndramey on Oct 27, 2013 21:44:10 GMT -5
Potion distribution will decrease, campsite distribution will be (as you pointed out) well-planned. I like not having Resting because it allows us to create scarcity areas and you'll feel them powerfully. Cool, I like the current distribution of campsites. If I may ask, will potions be very expensive relative to their effect? Or will they be purchasable at all? Are you planning on them being very rare, somewhat uncommon, or relatively common in the game world? |
|
|
|
Post by slayernz on Oct 27, 2013 21:46:43 GMT -5
Actually one thing that I have a question about - do we actually have time passing during the game? In other words, do we have to worry about time for certain missions/events (get to X within Y days)? If we are impacted by time, then resting at camps will be something we as players would have to factor in - do we have enough time to complete our objective if resting takes, say 8 hours?
|
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Oct 27, 2013 22:19:44 GMT -5
slayernz - the next phase of alpha or phase 3 will have passage of time. Moon phases will come and go per the 13 month lunar calendar of Steel. There may be quests that are driven by hard time requirements and others that are "best done" during a certain time of the lunar cycle. We are still waiting to see how much of that depth we can add with our scope!
|
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Oct 27, 2013 22:22:47 GMT -5
Potion distribution will decrease, campsite distribution will be (as you pointed out) well-planned. I like not having Resting because it allows us to create scarcity areas and you'll feel them powerfully. Cool, I like the current distribution of campsites. If I may ask, will potions be very expensive relative to their effect? Or will they be purchasable at all? Are you planning on them being very rare, somewhat uncommon, or relatively common in the game world? - they will be purchasable, on the expensive-side. Something we will hopefully get more feedback on in P2 as there will be a town and access to potions. |
|
|
|
Post by hosh on Oct 28, 2013 15:44:48 GMT -5
Travelling and busted my knee, so I have not played much. And I still have not finished Nightmare yet. (This is normal, I don't usually finish games).
I usually use the Outlander's empowered attacks, typically high damage, and use the non-empowered Loose ability for the thief. Part of it is that, I want to save the thief's SP for other things, and use Loose mainly to keep a stream of damage (it's not exactly suppressing fire, but eh). Part of it is, when I want the Outlander hitting, I want him to hit *hard*.
The few times when I have the Cleric dealing damage, it is with an empowered attack. This is usually for big bosses that I want to take down fast, after debuffing as much as I can.
Spiders are killed with three loose shots, so there isn't a point in wasting an empowered attack on them. The rest depends on the situation. For example, I used the Outlander's empowered attack for extra accuracy, as I wanted to make sure some damage is getting dealt.
|
|
|
|
Post by hosh on Oct 28, 2013 15:46:33 GMT -5
That said if some form of mana recovery idea (like resting) does come in, or possible changes to spirit costs (as has been mentioned about being discussed for farsight) that may be different for me. Exactly. And on Nightmare, resources are constrained too much to waste SP on empowered attacks when you don't need to, not unless you want to slog back to camp more often. |
|
|
|
Post by johndramey on Oct 29, 2013 8:12:15 GMT -5
And on Nightmare, resources are constrained too much to waste SP on empowered attacks when you don't need to, not unless you want to slog back to camp more often. I've actually not noticed this at all, and I don't spam the campsite. I think I've rested at my campsite 2 or 3 times in my nightmare run through, and I'm a little over half of the way through. Let's say, 5 total rests? I don't think that's too much, and I still have a lot of potions. I've been using pretty much nothing but curses/empowered attacks and have maybe used.... 3 potions? All of them on my thief because disarming costs so much at the moment. |
|
So, from my POV, if we add it, it should be added as camp with a % of wandering monster (some danger). One click, regen! Why make it any more complicated? Not promising we are adding it, just stating why I don't think anything short of a rest cycle is really in your benefit.
With us, the game designers!
