Bringing the Thief to Justice

[John Robinson]

I've kept a blow by blow journal of clearing the first two rooms in version 1.1.1 I'll put that in a separate post so I can go to bed. I want to start the post with my findings.

The Thief Starts the game with 91 Spirit Points. After the first room, and east room are cleared, she has 59 Spirit points remaining, and has not used the Aimed Shot talent.

91 - 59 = 32. 32 divided by 91 times 100 equals a 35 percent usage of her total available SP. With the North Hall and Thurgrim and his posse coming up next.

All she did was unlock the cell doors, unlock two entrance doors, unlock a chest, and cast 2 farsight spells. Talents no one else could perform to reduce the drain on her spirit point reserves.

The Wizard will be offered an unlock spell, and a farsight spell but can he really afford to spend a talent point to get it? Why should he have to make up for talents a gifted thief should already have? I have tested the Thief in many ways during our Alpha phases and think she needs help.

Precision Pick The Thief has a Dexterity of 6, and Security of 3. When standing right in front of a locked chest, or door. Picking locks may look like magic, but comes from months if not years of practice and experience. For Precision Pick 1 the only requirement for picking a lock should be AP with no added SP. If a Thief wanted to pick a lock 2 or 3 hexes away, now we are talking about needing some magic to pull it off. So there is still a good reason for players to put points in Precision Pick to increase the range, and security save. The first example that comes to mind, is being able to stand behind the Outlander when the door lock gets picked springs open with giant spiders behind it. It can be argued that Precision Pick also increases the Security save. That's fine. PP-1 should trade AP for that not add SP. Any higher than that you need magical assistance.

Disarming Touch  Tamilin says "Ok everybody, show of hands who else has this in their talent list? Keyra? No Anybody else?"  I'm making the same point as a locked door. If you are standing right in front of a hex you want to look for a trap in. Use AP for on adjacent hex without adding SP. Maybe 3AP, 1AP to find the trap, 2AP to disable it. The ability to increase range and even raise it to a area of effect talent is really cool, and should require magic. If you want to look for a trap 3 hexes away you need some x-ray magic glasses. But if it is the hex right in front of you, any self respecting Thief should use PP-1 to see it and disarm it without resorting to magic.

Aimed Shot The Thief is the only one who can use a bow, has a skill of three and dexterity of 6. A well aimed shot through the mouth of a giant spider might look like magic, but it comes from long practice. If you have ever aimed anything from a snowball to a sling shot. Hitting the center mass, or the biggest visible piece of the target has the most success. But if you want revenge in the snowball fight you sneak up and aim for the back of the head. Not that I would do such a dastardly deed just an example. So I visualize the Thief holding the bowstring taught carefully tracking the target, taking the time she needs, then letting it fly.
Let Aimed Shot 1 cost be Wep AP +1AP to aim. The higher damage and accuracy that come from Higher levels of Aimed Shot, That's when SP costs should kick in.

That's all I have time for tonight will continue . . .

[slayernz]

Hi John Robinson,
When I first read this post, I was thinking "Yes, the thief is being short-changed in the SP usage department", but as I read it again, I thought Yes, there can be some tweaks in SP consumption for the thief, but not necessarily as dramatic a change as you might recommend. The reason for this is that in my mind, Spirit is probably an incorrect way to describe that facet of a character ... well okay, it's appropriate for the Cleric, and possibly for the Wizard. Instead, imagine Spirit = Focus Calling it the ability to Focus does change the way you view the consumption.

The Thief has the ability to shoot arrows or stab things with her blade - she's gotten so good at doing this, that it takes very little concentration. She's just flowing through the moves as naturally as she breathes.

However, for Aimed Shot, she is focusing/concentrating on hitting a precise part of the target. It means a shift from the unconscious/reflex type action to a very conscious action. You can concentrate only so much during a day without the need to rest/recover.

Similarly picking locks isn't really magical, but rather, again, takes focus to be successful. As your security skill level goes up, your cost of casting the lock picking action should go down (ie, Spirit consumption should reduce). In fact, with a very high security level (eg Security = 6-8+), basic locks shouldn't cost any Spirit/Focus at all, because it becomes almost second-nature to pick a basic lock. With more complex locks, there will be more concentration, and therefore higher Spirit usage.

Broadening the discussion to include the Outlander, He is at one with his blade, but to get more out of it than usual, he needs to focus on his movements (ie, Crushing Blow). In order to absorb less damage, he must put his mind into a state of Zen (ie, Stone Skin).

[Lesleyr]

Slightly off topic but while we are discussing picking locks, will the thief be the only character out of the 12 who can open a lock? Anyone can wield a sword, more or less, but if you can't get the door open you are in deep trouble.

[fallen]

@leslyr - the Thief, Rogue, and Assassin will all have pick lock talents. The Wizard is the only character outside of the Stealth character slot that will have the ability.

[John Robinson]

Nov 30, 2013 15:00:32 GMT -5 fallen said:

@leslyr - the Thief, Rogue, and Assassin will all have pick lock talents. The Wizard is the only character outside of the Stealth character slot that will have the ability.

Great News! Thanks, can't wait to see the new character attribute/skill/talent differences. I'm thinking of the Rogue with the song, "I wan't my MTV" floating around in my brain.

[slayernz]

Errr how on earth do you relate a rogue with an old Dire Straits song?

[absimiliard]

Isn't it roughly when rogue came out? (the game, of the eponymous category of "rogue-like games" that is)

-abs

[slayernz]

Ohhh ... I never played it, it would have been fun though (looking at the Wiki page).

[absimiliard]

I could be wing about the date though. It's really just a guess.

[fallen]

John Robinson - I'd agree most heartily with slayernz's description of Focus Points. For Wizard and Cleric, Spirit Points makes clear sense, but think of this as the inner strength of the Outlander that he radiates into his deeds, the burning power of his kernel of rage. That gets worn out too after he has done many mighty deeds of martial prowess. Did you ever play World of Darkness, Mage? Way back in the day in which I did, I loved their concept that Magic is whatever belief you hold that changes the world. Taken to the absurd, if I believe I can cook amazing cookies, focus that belief, and I do it ... magic. Science is magic.

The Outlander lives through his blade and makes some amazing things happen, survives some amazing hits. Is he a hardcore swordsman? Yes. Does he do magic? In that very loose description of magic - absolutely, he fights with a deadpan confidence that he can and will survive and that no enemy can stand before him. And low and behold, he proves it.

The Thief is purposefully holding all the cards when it comes to map challenges (Farsight, Locks, Traps). You could choose to spread that burden to the Wizard as well if you wanted to reduce some of the weight from Tamilin's shoulders. However, you can't do that with the Sorcerer, so even that is a limited respite.

I have gone and corrected all the Thief Talents that granted better than 1 range on their first level -- those were a mistake. The SP cost of Precision Pick has also been lowered a bit for the first few levels.

[John Robinson]

Yes I agree, with enthusiasm. I still have every hardcover rule book made from my old D&D paper pencil days. I just took a look at World of Darkness, Mage, on Wiki I can see endless hours/months of play there. I've played games like this since they were available in DOS. I'll always have fond memories of the first Neverwinter Nights on Windows. The only one they did with a thick spiral bound rule book, a true labor of love. Until the Rogue gets here all I have to whine about is Tamlin so I'll have to make due(lol). I wonder if a few things about Tamlin could be adjusted.

Tamlin Farsight 1              5/4  Range 6  (I could live Kharjtan's cost to get the extra AP to start running away from attack)
Kharjtan Spirit Sight 1       3/5  Range 6

Tamlin Farsight 2             5/6 Range 6
Kharjtan Spirit Sight 2      3/9 Range 7

Tamlin Farsight 4             4/10 Range 7
Kharjtan Spirit Sight 4      3/17 Range 8

Farsight she uses all the time, Kharjtan gets a range bump at rank 2 and 4. Tamlin Gets a bump at rank 3 and 5. Sure he spends a little more SP to cast Spirit Sight. But it's really not about the individual cost, it's about how frequently you use it. Like Choking Dust for Kharjtan, Farsight is important to Tamlin. Choking Dust is very economical in SP expenditure. So could we keep her SP cost about the same but give her the range bump at rank 2 and 4 like Karjtan gets?

Aimed Shot  Could we bring this more in line with Vrae's Savage sweep?  If she is meant to be a bow expert this is her force multiplier, and she should be able to use it at the same cost.  

Vraes        Savage Sweep 1   W/2  +3 Accuracy for Attack
Tamlin       Aimed Shot 1        W/3  +3 Accuracy +3 Damage

Vraes        Savage Sweep 2    W/3  +5 Accuracy +4 Damage
Tamlin       Aimed Shot 2        W/5   +4 Accuracy +6 Damage 

Vraes cost continues to raise by 1 Tamlin's by 2 by level 5 the damage and accuracy gap are very close but Tamlin's Aimed shot costs double, which is more than she can afford.  Vraes's Savage Sweep wielded behind a 2-H blade, will always trump a bow with Aimed shot at twice the cost.  To be  effective with the bow she needs to be able to shoot often with higher damage.  Vraes starts with 3 in a variety of weapons she cannot use.  She starts with a 3 in bow, and that is the weapon she was meant to use by design.  I would even go point for point dmg and accuracy equal to savage sweep, both empowered attacks.  It's more fun to see here shoot hit and make it count instead of picking off the weaklings, can't be done if the cost is too high.

Vraes        Savage Sweep 5   W/6   +8 Accuracy +18 Damage
Tamlin       Aimed shot 5        W/12  +6 Accuracy +20 Damage

Precision Pick versus Warding words.  Kharjtan gets his range 2 at rank one, Tamlin at rank 3.  Kharjtan gets his range 3 bump at rank 3. Tamlin is still at range 2 at rank 5 of Precision Pick.  I know Kharjtan spends more, but he does not specialize in Thief skills, so they should cost more for him to use. Would you be open to giving her range 2 at rank 2?  Or could you shave 1 AP of her regular cost of 6, and at rank 5 lower the AP to 4 as Karjtan's also goes down at rank 5. 

[slayernz]

Yeah Aimed Shot can get a little too expensive for the thief - if you are not careful and end up with aimed shot that is too high, you end up running out of SP before you have killed enough bad guys to fill your quota for the day

[fallen]

Thanks for the feedback guys. After taking a long look at Rogue vs. Thief, I have increased the power of Aimed Shot and reduces its cost to insure that Tamilin stands very clearly as a ranged specialist. I have tweaked some of the SP costs for Tamilin's talents (lowered) and modified the AP progression for Precision Pick. I am happy with the rest of the differences and the progressions. The Wizard and Thief approach the sight / lock talents differently. And if you are putting multiple Talent points into the Wizard's Warding Words talent, then you -are- specializing in lock picking (in my opinion, you'd only do this in a group in which your Stealth character is ignoring the lock pick talent).

[slayernz]

Oooooooooooooooo ... SOOO WANT THE GAME UPDATES NOOOOOOOOW ... can't wait for the 5th!

[hosh]

Dec 1, 2013 16:12:09 GMT -5 fallen said:

John Robinson - I'd agree most heartily with slayernz's description of Focus Points. For Wizard and Cleric, Spirit Points makes clear sense, but think of this as the inner strength of the Outlander that he radiates into his deeds, the burning power of his kernel of rage. That gets worn out too after he has done many mighty deeds of martial prowess.

Spirit and Focus reads the same to me, but I'm a bit weird. I practice both martial arts and meditation for realz; you can get into some interesting states with concentration skills alone, states where distinctions between 'spirit' and 'focus' disappear. The usual distinctions are that 'focus' is related to volition and will, and 'spirit' is not necessarily so, often related to powers granted beyond the personal. Deep concentration states though, gives you a different relationship to what 'volition', 'will', and 'personal' means. But I get it that it doesn't necessarily follow the popular trope. :-D