Thoughts - Part 1 (Possible Spoilers)

[fallen]

sgbeal - you should try the "Skip Intro" button if you dislike the intro time.
Definitely try the Effects button to see what curses and buffs you have active.

[sgbeal]

Thanks, fallen. i found a mention to that option a few hours ago in another thread and did indeed start a new game with Vincent. However, after looking through his damage-per-skill-level progression:

startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/5977/vincentss-talent-table-shock-therapy

i'm not all that impressed with him, and will stick with Fireball-boy as my centerpiece. i don't want a jack-of-all-trades, i want someone who can consistently/reliably deal considerable damage, and only the Mage can do that.

Regarding buffs: do i understand correctly that "+N damage" actually means "+N sides are added to the damage die roll"? (So, on average, only some fraction of N is added to the damage?) If so, i see even less reason to use the Mage to buff up other characters when he can instead be busily handing out an a&&-whooping rather than handing out unreliable/potential increases to damage to other characters via buffs.

[fallen]

sgbeal - it's worth considering If you read other threads where other players comment on their character effectiveness, you'll find everyone else being very effective with different characters, all the way up to Nightmare.

While Vincent requires a shifted tactic for the group -- I prefer Kjartan because of his curses and the Critical % on Burning Blades, but I've seen Cory playing with Vincent and can vouch for him being a power house.

The +N Dmg increases the sides on the damage dice.

Either way you land, enjoy!

[Karjus]

sgbeal, honestly I didn't believe Fallen in regards to debuffing/buffing myself either til I tried it myself. It seems they've put a lot of work into keeping things balanced, with the optimal way to play requiring synergy between party members. Right now, you've got 1 powerful character, one mediocre and two useless. If that is your preference of play, so be it but you'll likely never see any of your other party members become reasonable without thinking outside the box.

Also, it is really the %Crit percentage which starts making Burning Blades amazing. Extra damage is good, crit is superb. Use it with Deadly Intuition on Tamlin, and she out damages my pure Aimed Shot build I first tried. Can't wait to get Berserk on Vraes to try a 36% crit build pre-gear.

If that is how you like to play though, I do suggest looking at the Cleric's Banishment spell which can be reasonably good, and also put all your points into Sweeping Attack for Vraes. You might have to increase intelligence a few times instead of strength, but you might be able to turn him into a one-trick pony as well.

[sgbeal]

Karjus, my plan was to have 4 awesome characters, but:

Cleric: her offensive magic (including debuffs) is too expensive (in terms of Spirit). The only thing she has a good price/performance for (IMO) is healing and _minor_ debuffing. At high levels, minor debuffs don't seem worth it to me. So there's not much for her to do except stand out of the way and wait to heal people (every 3 rounds or so), or potentially to block of an extra hole to hinder access to the two Main Guns (Mage + Thief).

Warrior: his Brutal Strike (or whatever it's called - his first offensive boost) doesn't work worth a hoot. Because of how the "+N damage" works, his normal attacks regularly do just as much damage as his boosted attacks, and he doesn't have enough Spirit to waste on a _random chance_ at getting a better damage roll. His only saving graces for me are his high HP and Stone Skin.

Thief: this one's okay, but not great. She gets in a good deal of damage because Warrior and Cleric block for her.

Regarding the %crits: it's really unusual that my Warrior ever gets more than a few hits in because either the fireballs get them before they get close enough or because it's the Superrats who simply refuse to get hit. Mid/Late-game, per fight my Warrior lands only a small handful of hits - not enough to make any _reliable_ use of a small critical hit chance (if it were 80%+, okay, but it's not). He's more reliable as a blocker than a hitter.

The reasons for my disappointment with the Warrior and Cleric stem basically from Spirit costs. Her costs for reasonably leveled offensive talents are too high and his Spirit is too low to do support any high-level talents. i can't afford to feed each PC a Spirit potion every turn. i've had battles where i've needed 20 Spirit potions to get through because the Ratkin Faucet just doesn't ever seem to turn off. That gets too expensive (in terms of loot - it all goes to buying more Spirit potions).

Obviously, a one-trick-pony army like mine is (A) extremely poor strategy all-around and (B) eventually DOOMED. All TB has to do is put a fire-proof monster in there and i've got a real problem (especially because monsters tend to come in packs of 10+). However, the relatively slow level/attribute/skill point progression (slow in terms of _my_ time) and high spirit costs (resp. low spirit scores resp. small amount of spirit potions) mean that if i want to be able to deal single-turn kills, i've got to concentrate my firepower, and currently the most effective/_reliable_ single-turn killer is a high-level Fireball (okay, two turns for Deathkins). The other buffs/bonuses i've looked at so far are far too unreliable to be useful as a basis for a solid strategy - there's far too much luck involved in a 20% bonus or a -2 Dodge debuff.

All my play so far has been on Easy. i don't have a clue how you guys are surviving through Episode 1 on Hard+.

Yesterday i started two new games to try out other options, but the holidays are about over so my time with them is much more limited than with my first party. So far i'm not all that impressed with Vincent's damage per turn, but will give him until the end of the Prologue to impress me (his area-of-effect might convince me). My third party is on my SGS2 phone, where i will (A) try to figure out how playable it is on a tiny screen and (B) try to squeeze more magic (probably (de)buffs) out of the cleric. (So far i've been playing it on a 10" tablet.)

[contributor]

In all of this I'm surprised that no one sees Kyera as a decent melee option. I've found her handy in other games and have started a new group specifically to turn her into a battle maven. Her Smiting Blow comes with an accuracy boost and she's got lots of SP so you can use it pretty regularly. With a 3 accuracy hammer she can be a regular big-hitter. If I can turn her into a fighter that can stand (almost) toe-to-toe with Vraes, I'll post it. It seems worth a good try at least.

[Karjus]

I've kind of answered regarding how to make the Outlander a much viable combatant, who consistently hits earlier on in my posts. I had the *exact* same problems with both him, and the Cleric. Ignore Brutal Strike, it's absolutely worthless (Might be good for a high Natural Mastery/Vincent Lightning Blade build) and get Natural Mastery. That skill alone will see Vraes landing consistent hits on undebuffed enemies, throw some debuffs on them and he rocks them. That's on the hardest difficulty, so I imagine you won't even need as many points as I put into it to make it worthwhile. He'll land normally.. I want to say 66% of his attacks on a rat and do solid damage. With Burning Blades up, he does a lot more damage.

As for the Cleric, Smiting Blow is amazing and if you leave it at the basic level so ridiculously cheap to use but still with a good chunk of +Accuracy. Won't let her hit the tougher monsters consistently, but with just that she works out decently clearing up the Archers/Warriors. Once again, especially if they're debuffed with Cursing Ash.

Once again, I had the damn same problems if you check the first post in the thread. There are solutions.

With Vincent, the way he is means you can't rely on him like the Wizard. Going to have to look at the synergy. Lightning Blades is good, and the +Accuracy from it is a true gift. You won't land as big a hits with it, but if you're having trouble hitting at all it can be a huge help. As for his attack skills, the Accuracy buff on Storm Strike is ridiculous. A point or two in there will go a long way to start with. Personally though, I prefer the Wizard as the only debuff I like from Vincent is Flash Freeze.

[fallen]

Dec 26, 2013 17:47:39 GMT -5 Karjus said:

they've put a lot of work into keeping things balanced, with the optimal way to play requiring synergy between party members

The game is a -a lot- more fun if you focus on this type of strategy. The game is a team game

[tenbsmith]

I just finished Episode 1 on Hard. Mainly wanted to say BRAVO to the Trese's.

Here's my build out.
Outlander: Strength 9, Constitution 7, Blades 10, Crushing 3, Mastery 3, Phalanx 2.
Cleric: Intelligence 7, Knowledge 6, Strength 5, Hammers 10, Smiting Blow 3, Tears 2, Anguish 1, Shield 2 & Breeze 1.
Thief: Dexterity 9, Inteligence 6, Bows 7, Aimed Shot 6, Intuition 2.
Mage: Inteligence 8, Willpower 7, Sorcery 8, Firebolt 3, Ash 3, Pureflame 2, Blades 1 & Immolation 1.

I'm having fun using buffs and curses for the first time ever in a video game. Many don't look that great at first, but the accumulated affect over multiple turns definitely pays off.
-Breeze is great for removing enemy curses on the Outlander.
-Immolation failed all three times I tried it, so I don't try it anymore.
-I prefer Phalanx Shield to Stone Skin because I don't use the extra hit points you get with stone skin.

[tenbsmith]

I've only done a limited amount of leveling skills that increase duration of buffs, focusing instead on increasing the intensity of offensive/defensive abilities. Using this strategy, I hit harder for a shorter period of time, though often long enough to work my way through a gang of ratkin.

I hoard... potions; there, now you know. In most normal fights I don't use health potions, Tears only. When I run out of spirit, I try to eek out a win without using potions. After a fight like that I usually head to camp for a nap.

I entered the Episode 1 Boss fight with a deep supply of potions. This allowed me to take potions with that last Action Point often left when a character does three attacks without moving.

Using these strategies on Hard, the Episode 1 Boss fight was challenging, but I was in control the whole way.

[John Robinson]

Dec 30, 2013 19:30:18 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

I just finished Episode 1 on Hard. Mainly wanted to say BRAVO to the Trese's.

Here's my build out.
Outlander: Strength 9, Constitution 7, Blades 10, Crushing 3, Mastery 3, Phalanx 2.
Cleric: Intelligence 7, Knowledge 6, Strength 5, Hammers 10, Smiting Blow 3, Tears 2, Anguish 1, Shield 2 & Breeze 1.
Thief: Dexterity 9, Inteligence 6, Bows 7, Aimed Shot 6, Intuition 2.
Mage: Inteligence 8, Willpower 7, Sorcery 8, Firebolt 3, Ash 3, Pureflame 2, Blades 1 & Immolation 1.

I'm having fun using buffs and curses for the first time ever in a video game. Many don't look that great at first, but the accumulated affect over multiple turns definitely pays off.
-Breeze is great for removing enemy curses on the Outlander.
-Immolation failed all three times I tried it, so I don't try it anymore.
-I prefer Phalanx Shield to Stone Skin because I don't use the extra hit points you get with stone skin.

Congrats on beating Hard, that's still in the "Someday wish bucket" for me.  I have couple questions and could use your help.

When you bumped Blades, and Hammers to 10 did you really see a huge difference in damage and accuracy?  I kicked Tamlin to 9 bows but
didn't see much of a difference, but by then I did have Aimed Shot 4.  Also I'm thinking of putting 3 points into Deadly Intuition, added to burning blades, that should bring her up to 9% Criticals.  Did Deadly Intuition work for you?  I must say when she lands one it is impressive, so far the highest single shot damage I've seen is 150 points of damage. (Aimed Shot 4, Burning Blades 3).

Vraes: For me it's Phalanx Shield all the way boosted with high Leadership for long duration to afford using rank 4 or 5.  Definitely seeing him not getting chopped to doll rags and It does a good job of soaking damage from Archers.  I don't even bother to use Stone Skin anymore. 

I agree Immolation looks like an all or nothing talent to invest in.  As I level I'm seeing a big increase in monster magic resistance.  I'm studying the thread about it so I guess I just haven't figured out the best way to use it yet.

Wizard;  How far to take Choking Ash is always a tough decision for me.  It is such a great cost effective curse, makes Vermin Rot looks pathetic. 

Thanks in advance for any clues I can use

[tenbsmith]

I only advanced Blades and Hammers to 10 shortly before the boss battle, so not a lot of data, but it did seem to help. I seem to recall Vraes regularly killing level 11 Ratkin Bowman in a single turn, though he usually was using Natural Mastery. I really can't be conclusive about advantages of going to 10.

Phalanx Shield is the bomb, though I may level up Natural Mastery next time so V can hit consistently with Crushing Blow.

I really like Deadly Intuition. The increased accuracy seemed to land more shots and was useful on its own or stacked with Aimed Shot and/or Burning Blades. My largest critical as >100 points on the shaman in the boss fight. I'm planning on leveling Intuition and burning blades next time i get the chance.

I mostly use firebolt on monsters with lower resistance.

I went to Ash 3 specifically to ensure that I could deal damage to high level enemies.

[Cory Trese]

This thread was a lot of fun to read.

Heroes of Steel ... such fun!

One of the things we strive for is "easy to learn, hard to master."

---

Some of the build discussion above points at that -- you can build a working team of 4 individuals without much practice or experimentation.

However, to create perfect synergy between every talent you're leveling requires deep understanding of the capabilities of the characters.

[algesan]

Dec 18, 2013 10:02:40 GMT -5 Karjus said:

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For me, the variation in weaponry has nothing to do with the poorness of the town. It is metagaming over lore, by ensuring that regardless of what sort of build a person has used for Vraes by that point of the game that they get something useful out of it. Their Vraes might be a master hammerman and barely knows which end of a sword you stick someone with, who'll just look at the sword they're offered and go "No thanks, give me some coin instead. More useful." Like I said, meta not lore. My preference when it comes to quest rewards, especially ones for main episode quests is usually meta as it ensures every player thinks "Cool, I got something useful" instead of "Well here is more stuff to vendor."

+1...of course, I'm sitting with a Vincent NM party with Swords spec Vraes and holding a real nice 2H spear and my Karj NM party with a Spear spec Vraes has a really nice 1H sword, but that is par for the course because chit 'appens.

Getting a X major quest reward for a party not setup for X use in a linear storyline is...lame.  Solutions would be allowing for respec (which really only applies to Vraes, which would be silly), reworking Vraes weapon skills to make him a simple master of all weapons with one skill purchase (IMO, coupled with weapon specific talent abilities, a better choice) or making sure a party gets X.

Why Vraes as a weapon master, a.k.a. one melee skill?  Simple, it gives him a solid base to hit and defend with all melee weapons and then with Axe, Blade, Hammer, Spear talents he would get the bonus goodies.  Hey, pick up the Hammer, use Crushing Blow...grab a Sword, use Sweeping Attack...seize your trusty Spear and get a Defensive Attack (tiny bonus to hit, little bonus to damage + parry/dodge buff for next round, sticking spearpoint in opponents' faces to back them up).  Heh, much simpler to give a Blade 3 Vraes something besides a Sword.

[fallen]

algesan - thanks for the feedback, we are going to work on making the reward more specific. In the mean time, try out Natural Mastery. Or, Vince could pick up the 1H sword.