Completionist play, gear and difficulty

[Outsider]

Mar 24, 2014 11:45:36 GMT -5 contributor said:

Mar 24, 2014 10:11:49 GMT -5 fallen said:

contributor -

1) I am very, very surprised that you'd say that is the case. Look closer at the weapons? We need to vary their names, so that it is clearer.
2) Enemy level is related to difficulty, the region you are in, and your level. Gear is not taken int account. As I pushed in E1, if you are finding the difficulty rising in the dungeon and feel like you can't keep up - seek better weaponry or armor, or consider re-juggling your gear.

1) My first group played through most of the Underforge before you increased the occurrence of weapons. I did find one sword in the Temple of the Aracnid that had slightly better stats than what I had bought in Riven Field. My second group has found more stuff, but unfortunately they are a hammer and bow group and I have never found a hammer in a drop yet in E2. Selen has found a better bow than what she bought in Braeyshalum, and yes I'm aware that weapons with the same name have different stats. In the second group it's really hammer-Vraes who is having the hardest time. I'm able to pile lots of extra damage gear on Selen and with crits, she's pretty effective.

2) Without finding better weapons there's only so much you can do by juggling gear. Vraes is finding it harder to hit, so I have put more accuracy gear on him and less damage gear.

Another thing I would say is make sure to train as often as you can, even make special trips if necessary. On my latest play through I trained every time 2 or more characters leveled once. Since mobs are based on the groups average level (rounded up) every point of training makes a huge difference especially as far as strength/dex/knowledge and weapon expertise are concerned. I maxed anything that gave me the ability to hit first with just enough defense a second priority.

The side benefit of maxing weapon expertise is that it also gives you tons of strong defensive dice as well, double win. This format rocks in E1 until you return to the keep and then Vraes got a lot of defense boosts from me. Toying with max range of monsters you can absolutely grind fast and hard.

I would also say in E2 the drops seem much better than E1 both in frequency and quality, but that could've just been my luck. I would also confirm that hammer drops seem lacking from my experience as well in E2 but that is greatly offset by the super fly hammer you get upon completing UF.

[Cory Trese]

Great thread, glad to see everyone debating and learning about the game.

[algesan]

Outsider - Yep, I off-tanked with Selen on the way up, but remember, this is the same Selen that ended E1A2.  The entire party is still 17th level, she is wearing the same or better gear (via the Conquered Keep store) than at the end of E1 and IIRC I gave Kyera another point in Warder's for 17th level....after the fighting.  I didn't have 30 Dodge before the Baron fight.  So, what is basically a "better" Selen defensively in terms of the end of combat in E1 is struggling at the beginning of E2.  Yep, I could put back on some defensive gear she didn't need a couple of fights ago and there may have been a tweaking based on the amount of new gear dropping since my other party creeping around in the Orcin area to the NE of the Family Village has pretty much totally reequipped with new drops from there.  It is just a jarring sensation to go from "well, if I get real unlucky and a bunch of guys land hits, then I might get killed" to "If I stick her arse out there, she will "get unlucky" and stand a good chance of dying".  I'm back to the old dance in, tag stuff, dance out so only Vraes gets hit mode again.  Remember, no levels have changed.

[fallen]

However, you crossed a pretty significant marker between E1 and E2. The increase in monster level, AI intelligence, and challenge is purposeful.

[Outsider]

Mar 26, 2014 12:47:13 GMT -5 algesan said:

Outsider - Yep, I off-tanked with Selen on the way up, but remember, this is the same Selen that ended E1A2.  The entire party is still 17th level, she is wearing the same or better gear (via the Conquered Keep store) than at the end of E1 and IIRC I gave Kyera another point in Warder's for 17th level....after the fighting.  I didn't have 30 Dodge before the Baron fight.  So, what is basically a "better" Selen defensively in terms of the end of combat in E1 is struggling at the beginning of E2.  Yep, I could put back on some defensive gear she didn't need a couple of fights ago and there may have been a tweaking based on the amount of new gear dropping since my other party creeping around in the Orcin area to the NE of the Family Village has pretty much totally reequipped with new drops from there.  It is just a jarring sensation to go from "well, if I get real unlucky and a bunch of guys land hits, then I might get killed" to "If I stick her arse out there, she will "get unlucky" and stand a good chance of dying".  I'm back to the old dance in, tag stuff, dance out so only Vraes gets hit mode again.  Remember, no levels have changed.

I had the same rude awakening that made me really mad as well (at first). What I would say is Selen cannot tank early in E2 until you rank up gear and defensive abilities more.

Upon entering E2 I had to change my play style a lot until my gear caught up. I started having Vraes move up ahead of 2-3 mobs to a caster and had my group slice up those bypassed mobs. Then I would have to reposition my group based on what ignored Vraes (rotate my group on a Vraes axis) so that I could kill what threatened the other three or move past in such a way that they had to attack Vraes again the next round (if I couldn't kill them straight up, such as the high armor spiders)..if that makes sense.

I found that my first priority in E2 was no longer group behind Vraes but instead mobilize around Vraes and spread out (quite often bypassing doing as much damage) and anticipating where my group members would end up rather than what could they kill.

[Cory Trese]

I would say if you didn't build Selen to be a defensive tank in EP1, she won't do well in EP2 without some build changes.

I've had builds on both sides of that equation.

I found that my first priority in E2 was no longer group behind Vraes but instead mobilize around Vraes and spread out (quite often bypassing doing as much damage) and anticipating where my group members would end up rather than what could they kill.

Great summary

[fallen]

We've already modified the early E2 dialog once to try to make this clear. Maybe we need to be more heavy-handed with the warning and put it a few places as well.

[Outsider]

Mar 26, 2014 13:44:02 GMT -5 fallen said:

We've already modified the early dialog once to try to make this clear. Maybe we need to be more heavy-handed with the warning and put it a few places as well.

You made it abundantly clear IMO, people (like me) don't like to change. I'd say what made me angry was that it took time to figure out how to modify my play and get the gear to get back to where I was in terms of reaping souls. It's always frustrating to go from badass to lard ass, even if the change is temporary. It happens in all games.. Trust me I did end game raiding in WoW for nine years. :-)

[fallen]

Thanks. Do let me know if you think there are places where additional warning is needed.

[contributor]

To try and get back to my original question, it sounds like Cory Trese is saying that, yes gear is static across areas, but there are other built in balances between player leveling up and monster leveling that mostly negate the inherent limit to the gear. So even if you completely clear every map and level up as high as possible you shouldn't, barring miserable drops, be hindered by the gear limitation

By the way, the gear I'm mostly talking about is weapons. In the two play throughs I've done so far I just find my damage and accuracy for melee fighters dropping really low by the end. And since accuracy is dropping I'm forced to equip more accuracy gear and forgo +damage gear.

Apparently there is also better gear out there that I'm just not finding. Are there hammer drops in E2A1?

Also Outsider, what difficulty levels are you playing at? I'm sure that on lower difficulties this is not nearly as much of an issue and you can balance gear and tactics around get what you want out of your characters, but on Nightmare the margins are just so thin and you've got to make some terrible choices to get your characters to perform. At least, that is, if you aren't playing with Karjtan, who can use choking ash to reduce everyone to a quivering defenseless baby.

[Outsider]

Mar 26, 2014 16:21:00 GMT -5 contributor said:

To try and get back to my original question, it sounds like Cory Trese is saying that, yes gear is static across areas, but there are other built in balances between player leveling up and monster leveling that mostly negate the inherent limit to the gear. So even if you completely clear every map and level up as high as possible you shouldn't, barring miserable drops, be hindered by the gear limitation

By the way, the gear I'm mostly talking about is weapons. In the two play throughs I've done so far I just find my damage and accuracy for melee fighters dropping really low by the end. And since accuracy is dropping I'm forced to equip more accuracy gear and forgo +damage gear.

Apparently there is also better gear out there that I'm just not finding. Are there hammer drops in E2A1?

Also Outsider, what difficulty levels are you playing at? I'm sure that on lower difficulties this is not nearly as much of an issue and you can balance gear and tactics around get what you want out of your characters, but on Nightmare the margins are just so thin and you've got to make some terrible choices to get your characters to perform. At least, that is, if you aren't playing with Karjtan, who can use choking ash to reduce everyone to a quivering defenseless baby.

I can't speak to the higher difficulty levels, I tried Brutal once after Easy but found it tedious. I play to enjoy myself, not to overly burden myself lol...so to that end, I have no notion what things are like for you...only speaking to my experience. I've settled comfortably into Normal for my last several play throughs but I expect the techniques I've developed wouldn't go amiss in higher difficulties (especially as Cory has confirmed many of my techniques and notions). Cheers!