Group build feedback and advice thread

[johndramey]

Hey there HoS crew,

So, I was looking around for a good general thread for posting builds and critiquing other's builds, but it doesn't seem we have any. We have character specific talk threads, but nothing for strategizing about overall builds. As such, I figured that I could start one up and maybe we could have a place for all that stuff here.

Why not post our builds, our overall plans for our groups, and try to share some strategies that we've found? Could be fun!

Anyways, I'll start off. After reading all about pinning shot I caved in and started a new group the night before last. I'm running on the Hard difficulty, and my party is made up of Vraes, Vincent, Selen, and Fyona. I'm going to try to play this party a little more conservatively than I tend to, so my focuses have shifted a bit from the "CHARGE" that I usually do.

Vraes will be set up as a front line skirmisher, I'm focusing on pumping up his Savage Sweep in the early game. I'm thinking about pumping up Berserker Rage and Burst of Speed when I get to Oskahold, and having him be a heavy skirmisher. My plan is to have him sit behind Fyona and be focused on dealing as much damage as possible in as short a time as possible. Probably going to be focusing on a 1h sword and shield style, but might go with a 2h sword for maximum damage. My main rationale for that is the Burst of Speed will give him some extra freedom of movement, so I can sacrifice the 2AP swing of 1 handers for the harder hitting 2 hander, and my early focus in savage sweep will give me the accuracy to (hopefully) hit most of those heavy swings.

Vincent will be set up as a Curse/Buff mage, mostly focusing on Frigid Air in the early game with a two points tossed into Flash Freeze for a decent back-up anti-AP curse. His bread and butter will be to focus on Thundering Blades and Eye of the Storm at Oskahold, with the idea of getting either Lightening Spear or Energy Storm as a back up damage dealer for mobs. Coupling one of those attack skills with EotS would give him a relatively decent crit chance over a wide area, letting him be a back-lines force multiplier.

Selen is set up as a support Curse factory. Early game I am focusing on Pinning Shot in order to have a cheap and effective anti-AP curse that also reduces parry and dodge. Around Oskahold I plan on pumping up Punishing Blades for the anti-armor curse it will give, and have her be a light skirmisher. Ideally I'm thinking of having her roam around behind the lines, dealing out curses as need be. She'll be a counterpoint to Vraes, I'm expecting Vraes to be taking hits but I'm going to try to keep Selen as safe as possible.

Fyona is going to be set up as my front line tank. I've focused on pumping Shield of Cortias in the early game, giving both her and Vraes a little extra survivability. Once hitting Oskahold I'm thinking of focusing on her Zealous Strikes buff as a way to get damage downrange, and when she hits the proper level I'm going to pump Righteous Fervor to add even more survivability to the front. As an alternate to the Zealous Strikes path, I was considering possible using Consecrated Defense since that would give her 3 abilities boosting her own toughness. However, that seems like it could cause me to not be dealing enough damage down the line. Once I get high level with her I would start to point a couple points into Reckoning to give her an additional curse attack against heavy duty adversaries.

All in all, that's my basic plan. I'm still taking this party through the very beginning of the game, so I can modify it as I see fit. However, I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about it. Do you think this would be a viable turtle build? The problems that I see this group running into is that I'll be splitting my offense and defense, pretty much relying on Fyona for 80% of the defense and Vraes for 80% of the offense. Vincent will have some limited offensive abilities with his crit shotgun build, but he'll mostly only be effective against trash mobs. Selen will have little in the way of solo offensive ability, instead relying on others taking down the enemies she curses to hell and back.

So, critique me! Or, better yet, post your build and I'll critique it!

[Outsider]

That's almost identical to how I plan to setup my next group, however if the Dueler is out by the time I get around to it I may sub him in.

The only change I'll make is to have Vincent using Lightning Spear but not picking up Flash Freeze since Selen would handle it. I wouldn't wanna split his talent points that much as I would also invest in Thundering Blades and Frigid Air.

I'm definitely going to opt for Consecrated Defense but otherwise the same build as you for Fyona.

[En1gma]

I have been working hard on my JuggaVraes party and honestly I love this build- easily my most effective thus far.

Vraes is currently SSw 3, BoS 2 and SSk 3 getting well set up for Juggernaut, I think... His goal is to be a sprinting, heavily armored beat-stick, I want at least BoS 3 and SSk 4 before he unleashes his inner beast.

Vincent for now has focused on the setup for Vraes. I have pushed his LS up to 6 for weakening groups for Vraes to wade face first into and have just started Thundering Blades to give JuggaVraes even more kick.

Kyera is EA 4 to keep the heat turned down and to make sure I hit 'em consistently. Tears is at 3 for now and I have just started Piety Ward for protection in the future from casters. 3 points (I think) into invocation so far- I want to make sure banishment hits when it needs to- she is the one who I have put the most strategy for the long game- she isn't very useful yet and spends most of her time Anguishing and healing, biding her time until she can let loose her aoe attacks and realize the full potential I have set up for her.

Selen is my crit monster and Neo impersonator. Off tank extraordinaire she is focusing on Frenzied Blows, Punishing Blades, and QsD with end game focusing on DoS.

The entirety of my game is being used to set up JuggerVraes. With BoS and Juggernaut, the idea is that he will have more points at his disposal to use than he would ever need to use. With him wading into what Vincent sets up alongside Kyera, Selen is free to dance merrily behind our Juggernaut, slaughtering anything that Vraes ignores on his way to ultimate victory.

[johndramey]

Apr 17, 2014 19:32:13 GMT -5 Outsider said:

That's almost identical to how I plan to setup my next group, however if the Dueler is out by the time I get around to it I may sub him in.

The only change I'll make is to have Vincent using Lightning Spear but not picking up Flash Freeze since Selen would handle it. I wouldn't wanna split his talent points that much as I would also invest in Thundering Blades and Frigid Air.

I'm definitely going to opt for Consecrated Defense but otherwise the same build as you for Fyona.

Yeah, I've opted for consecrated defense with Fyona. MY thinking was that, as the main front line tank, she should be able to absorb as many attacks as possible without actually needing to worry. As such, consecrated defense won out over Zealous Strikes.

And Vincent is going to be specced into Lightening Spear, it just seems to work a little better. I still dumped a single point into Flash Freeze because it would let me have a cheap and effective -ap curse for single-target bruisers, but I figure one talent point into it is all I'm going to bother with. Lightening Spear beefed up properly will still be able to hit like a truck, and if I can couple it with a decent crit chance (through gear and talent) then it could start dealing out truly disgusting amounts of damage.

Apr 17, 2014 20:21:25 GMT -5 En1gma said:

I have been working hard on my JuggaVraes party and honestly I love this build- easily my most effective thus far.

Vraes is currently SSw 3, BoS 2 and SSk 3 getting well set up for Juggernaut, I think... His goal is to be a sprinting, heavily armored beat-stick, I want at least BoS 3 and SSk 4 before he unleashes his inner beast.

Vincent for now has focused on the setup for Vraes. I have pushed his LS up to 6 for weakening groups for Vraes to wade face first into and have just started Thundering Blades to give JuggaVraes even more kick.

Kyera is EA 4 to keep the heat turned down and to make sure I hit 'em consistently. Tears is at 3 for now and I have just started Piety Ward for protection in the future from casters. 3 points (I think) into invocation so far- I want to make sure banishment hits when it needs to- she is the one who I have put the most strategy for the long game- she isn't very useful yet and spends most of her time Anguishing and healing, biding her time until she can let loose her aoe attacks and realize the full potential I have set up for her.

Selen is my crit monster and Neo impersonator. Off tank extraordinaire she is focusing on Frenzied Blows, Punishing Blades, and QsD with end game focusing on DoS.

The entirety of my game is being used to set up JuggerVraes. With BoS and Juggernaut, the idea is that he will have more points at his disposal to use than he would ever need to use. With him wading into what Vincent sets up alongside Kyera, Selen is free to dance merrily behind our Juggernaut, slaughtering anything that Vraes ignores on his way to ultimate victory.

I like this build! A couple questions though;

I got SSw up to 3 as well, and it seems to be very SP hungry. How is Vraes (and your team in general) handling the SP demands of your skills?

My Vincent build is pretty much exactly like yours, so glad to see that he is working well. I don't have Lightening Spear up so high, but I pumped Frigid Air up a bit to give him a good anti-range curse.

I don't have Kyera in my group, so I can't really compare. Fyona is who I'm using instead, and as I've pointed out she is the crux to my defense.

The only problem I really see with your group is the lack of a focused defensive tank, are you pretty much using Vraes as your front-liner? How is that working out? Even in my early E1A1 team I'm finding that a damage specced Vraes takes a lot of damage, so my idea to pump up Fyona as a front line tank and healer has been pretty pivotal for my team. If I didn't have her up front I think I would have lost the team a couple times, but as it is I've avoided being killed thus far. Granted, I'm only playing on Hard, but even at that difficulty level I've been seeing Vraes take some sick damage (stupid green spiders hitting for 50+ )

[En1gma]

(Not quoting you for space concerns...) I have been noticing that lack of tank-ness the closer I get to E2- a typical battle for me typically goes like this: Selen up front- trigget fight- move Selen up and off center, usually on the side of the archers, where her dodge goes into effect. If enough AP, activate QsD. Vraes moves up into center of action near the side of most melee combatants, activate BoS if far away from combat, if enough AP activate SSk. If close to the fray, or if near enough to close, BoS 2nd turn. Vincent moves to form close triangle w Vraes and Selen, as this usually opens up the most opportunities for a crushing volley of LS. This is so far the only thing I have upgraded, but level 6 will be sufficient for now. Focus on him will now be focused on debuffing AP along with Kyera. Kyera is mah debuff queen with EA3 or 4 for now with the rest into heals.

Long term focus is aoe crowd control and management to the point of shutting down their offences to the point that they are unable to attack en-masse. Selen will be primarily a dancing distraction of death, as from here on out she will be crit building with heavy investment into QsD. Vraes is primary tank, but as soon as the opportunity arises, he will be able to drop everything and begin flailing about with juggernaut, sprinting about here and there, laying waste to those in front of him then move on to the next with his extra MP.

I'm also working on a mirror group with Fyona as primary tank and replacing Selen with Tam for some distance management. I hope this answered a few questions- ps- I find BoS much more SP draining than SSk, I get aroundit by just using potions and picking when I activate it... Mostly melee, I don't use it, many archers, I hit it first and close ranks.

[algesan]

Ouch, I had Kyera up to Ethereal 3 (from when it was the AoE level), then it got bumped to 4 for AoE....which mainly made Ethereal3 a more expensive AP reducer which sucked mana. Finally got it up to level 4 (I could have used the point elsewhere) at 19th or 20th level...and now the NPCs all line up diagonally, so it is an even more expensive mana sucker. Sure, I could wait until the NPCs all line up on my melee position...but by then the NPCs get an extra free swing or more because cutting the AP might have cost them an extra turn of movement to get in melee range. Of all my characters in parties that have misspent points...those EA points over base are the ones I'd most like two swap out, especially after the AP curse nerf.

[En1gma]

I think I have finally settled on the build that I will take through to the end of the game. It has taken me about a dozen builds, all played through to Oskahold, some further, in addition to actually losing sleep over it and this is what I have decided is an ultimate build (at least for myself)

BoS Vraes with aspirations of being that fast juggernaut with all that juicy AP and MP. Early he is focusing heavy into Crushing Blow and most likely won't touch SSw until later, if ever. He will also be focusing on either SSk or Phalanx. Blades, strength, with maybe 2:1 constitution, for added durability. Heavy skirmisher/off tank role for him is best here.

Fyona will be my main battle tank. Consecrated Defense will be her mainstay, used alongside either Hammer Blow (for cheap effectiveness) or Zealous Strikes for dual self buffs. Her only debuff will be Strickening, not too far initially, but building as we progress. She may also dabble in Shield of Cortias, just to boost both her and Vraes even more. Haven't quite decided wether or not she will focus on her secondary large heal, as she would most likely want to keep up her defensive buffs...

Mystic slot is filled by old Kjartan, who has aspirations of being my main debuffer, aoe damage dealer extraordinaire, Choking Ash is quite possibly the most important ability for him and will likely be raised 2:2:1 Firebolt/Immolation, Ash, Burning Blades. Once he comes of age he will focus on Immolation heavily until it becomes the 9-block, so Ash, Strickening and immolation will all affect the same group. Higher talents will likely skip Shockwave (unless he has points to spare, but since I plan on boosting his AoE we will see) but he will likely be enticed by his final AoE.

Selen is being raised to be my AP debuffer and will focus solely on bows until she gets older, I think. Pinning Shot is yet another way to lower dodge for Vraes to land his Crushing Blows. She will also put a point or two into Sly Look, Kjartan always needs to have a target, after all.

I believe this is the most balanced troop I have made as of yet- please feel free to critique or add suggestions, but I'm pretty confident this one in particular is airtight.

[Outsider]

Apr 22, 2014 10:36:45 GMT -5 En1gma said:

I think I have finally settled on the build that I will take through to the end of the game. It has taken me about a dozen builds, all played through to Oskahold, some further, in addition to actually losing sleep over it and this is what I have decided is an ultimate build (at least for myself)

BoS Vraes with aspirations of being that fast juggernaut with all that juicy AP and MP. Early he is focusing heavy into Crushing Blow and most likely won't touch SSw until later, if ever. He will also be focusing on either SSk or Phalanx. Blades, strength, with maybe 2:1 constitution, for added durability. Heavy skirmisher/off tank role for him is best here.

Fyona will be my main battle tank. Consecrated Defense will be her mainstay, used alongside either Hammer Blow (for cheap effectiveness) or Zealous Strikes for dual self buffs. Her only debuff will be Strickening, not too far initially, but building as we progress. She may also dabble in Shield of Cortias, just to boost both her and Vraes even more. Haven't quite decided wether or not she will focus on her secondary large heal, as she would most likely want to keep up her defensive buffs...

Mystic slot is filled by old Kjartan, who has aspirations of being my main debuffer, aoe damage dealer extraordinaire, Choking Ash is quite possibly the most important ability for him and will likely be raised 2:2:1 Firebolt/Immolation, Ash, Burning Blades. Once he comes of age he will focus on Immolation heavily until it becomes the 9-block, so Ash, Strickening and immolation will all affect the same group. Higher talents will likely skip Shockwave (unless he has points to spare, but since I plan on boosting his AoE we will see) but he will likely be enticed by his final AoE.

Selen is being raised to be my AP debuffer and will focus solely on bows until she gets older, I think. Pinning Shot is yet another way to lower dodge for Vraes to land his Crushing Blows. She will also put a point or two into Sly Look, Kjartan always needs to have a target, after all.

I believe this is the most balanced troop I have made as of yet- please feel free to critique or add suggestions, but I'm pretty confident this one in particular is airtight.

Funny you should mention this. I decided if I had it to do over again I'd skip Hammer Blow altogether and put those points into Zealous Strikes or Consecrated Defense (depending on if you wanted to tank or melee), Shield of Cortias, and Blessed Aura. I decided my secondary attack next time will be Reckoning when I reach appropriate level.

Since I used a lot of potions for single target healing most of the time I rarely heal with Fyona unless the group at large is taking damage. I found more often than not Vraes and Tami were running out of SP far more often and would just chug a group SP potion. Therefore I don't think I need the more efficient attack that Hammer Blow provides and would be better off just using Zealous Strikes all the time and getting more points into it and Shield of Cortias.

[En1gma]

Agreed about Hammer Blow, I'll be putting those points into Shield of Cortias, saving up for Reckoning, the debuff on that is amazing...This group is a powerhouse so far, and using Crushing Blow with two -dodge abilities isn't fair at all... Also a great way, I've found to spread out and reduce SP usage, if only because the battles are -much- shorter with Vraes killing an opponent in 2 swings, instead of 3-4

[fallen]

En1gma - the best groups will always find Talent combinations that fit together like hand-and-glove (like Crushing Blow and a -Dodge!!)

[johndramey]

I actually starter alternating talent points into Zealous Strikes and Consecrated Defense with Fyona. My main reasoning was this; with the +acc of Zealous Strikes Fyona will be able to connect more consistently in general melee, and then when using Consecrated Defense she'll be practically guaranteed. So with my Fyona build I'm focusing mostly on Shield of Cortias with an alternation between Zealous Strikes and Consecrated Defense. I boosted up Blessed Aura to a point where I can heal 100+ every cast, but will let the skill sit there for the time being.

My plan will be to bring Zealous Strikes up to around level 5 and try to max out Consecrated Defense as well as Shield of Cortias eventually. Once I get high enough level I'm thinking of either Reckoning (for extra offensive banging) or Righteous Fervor (for extra defensive punch).

And, like fallen said, I'm finding that I should always think in terms of at least 2 players. If I can build a decent synergy between my team members, I tend to start really cracking heads!

[hobiecat]

So, critique me! Or, better yet, post your build and I'll critique it!



Read more: startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/7464/group-build-feedback-advice-thread#ixzz2zp7kT5OU

So I finally decided to start up a new group (in Normal) and I figured I’d add to this thread and post it. After some thought (and reading through these forums), I ultimately decided upon a Vraes, Fyona, Karjtan and Tamlin group.


Fyona got the nod because I was not only incredibly intrigued by her powers, but because I really want to try to run a party that has two effective tanks. One of the things that I noted, especially in E2 with the more advanced enemy AI, is that Vraes was often not enough to effectively tank for the whole team (at least, in the way that I play). There were a number of times (especially in the Underforge) where I wished that I had 2 front-liners to hold back the swarms and give Karj and Tami more time and space to mow the enemies down with their ranged AoE. So to that end, here’s how I’m planning/building out Fyona:


At the start, I’m going to focus on Shield of Cortias since that benefits both her and Vraes. Once I get it to Level 3 (where Dodge moves to +2), I’m going to put a point in Blessed Aura and then probably another point into Zealous Strikes. I’m then going to focus back on Shield of Cortias again until Fyona turns Level 12. At that point, I’m going to raise Righteous Fervor (again because this benefits both her and Vraes) until she hits Level 18 (though I might put one more point into Blessed Aura in here). At that point, I want to give her at least 1 point of Reckoning. After that, I’ll probably alternate putting points into Shield of Cortias, Righteous Fervor, Blessed Aura and Zealous Strikes. My late game plan is that I want to max out both Shield and Fervor and with my remaining points allocated across Aura, Z Strikes and Reckoning (exact distribution TBD).


She’s going to use a 1H hammer with a shield and her primary attack will be Zealous Strike followed up with her normal Strikes (to conserve SP). The 1H Hammer will allow her to get as many buffed up strikes as possible and the Shield will help her overall tank-i-ness.


I’ve thought about putting points into Consecrated Defense and/or Battlefield Devotion, but discarded both ideas for this build in order to keep her focused. I definitely feel that having Consecrated Defense will make her a MUCH stronger tank, but since I’m going to move with a 2-tank model, I’m hoping that enemies will split their attacks between her and Vraes and therefore she doesn’t have to absorb every attack. As for Battlefield Devotion… while I want the ability to remove curses without resorting to scrolls, I feel that the 4 AP cost is just not worth it. I could change my mind on Battlefield Devotion as I get further with the build, but that’s what I’m thinking now.


Meanwhile, for Vraes, my initial focus is going to be Natural Mastery as he’s going to be using Crushing Blow as his main attack. All of my initial points are pretty much going to be poured into Strength, Swords and Mastery. I’m hoping that by maxing out Swords and Mastery up as quickly as possible in the early game will mean that he’ll also have a better “natural” defense against attacks as he should have a much larger pool of combat dice to throw against his attackers. I’m also doing this early because leveling up happens much faster in E1 and I can get Natural Mastery “out of the way” quickly. Then, in E2, when Talent points come much slower, I can focus on his “flashier” skills knowing that I already have a rock solid base of combat dice to support him. At the moment, I’m thinking that I’m going to focus the mid- to late-game Vraes on Crushing Blow, Juggernaut and either Stone Skin or Phalanx Shield (depending on whether I’ve gotten him using 1H or 2H swords). In the early game, he’s definitely using a 1H sword and shield to help support his tank-i-ness.


This is very clearly not a typical Vraes-tank build as I’m not planning on putting any points in his “traditional” tank skills in the early game. Instead, he’s going to depend on Fyona’s buffs to help him too. Again, since my plan is that he’ll be co-tanking with Fyona, I’m hoping that he won’t be the sole focus of every attack either.


So, behind this front line, Tamlin and Karjtan will be running my 2 QB wildcat offense.


For Tamlin, I’ve decided to experiment with Silent Stalker. All of this talk on the forum about Selen’s Pinning Shot getting rebalanced got me thinking about Tamlin’s one cursing bow attack. Since, I’m not building either Fyona or Vraes to be uber-tanks, I need to supplement their general defensibility with my Tam / Karj choices. I want Karjtan to be able to nuke people, which means that I’ll probably only have enough points to focus him on one curse, which I’ve already decided will be Choking Ash. I then realized that Silent Stalker could be the answer as it debuffs accuracy.


So, this is what I’m planning for Tamlin: 1 point into Farsight so that the AP cost goes down to 2. Then, everything into Blacknight until Level 6. At Level 6, everything into Deadly Intuition until Level 12 and I get Silent Stalker. After 1 point there, I’m probably going to go back to beefing up Deadly Intuition again until Level 18 when I can get Ranged Onslaught. After that, I’ll probably play it by ear on what I’ll be leveling up when, but I do know that I want to max out Deadly Intuition early (especially as Silent Stalker doesn’t have any attack bonuses outside of surprise… and the crits stack). The idea will be to use Silent Stalker to help make Fyona and Vraes harder to hit (and if I can annihilate an enemy or two on that opening round when I win initiative, all the better). Ranged Onslaught will otherwise be used to help clear the crowds and Aimed Shot will be for when I just need to do damage to a single enemy.
 Oh, and I will probably need to put some points into Precision Pick and Disarming Touch too.  Maybe 1 point in each after getting Ranged Onslaught?

For Karjtan… I’ll admit that I was originally going to go with Vincent, but then decided that I wanted a second go with Karjtan to correct all of my “regrets” with my last Karjtan build. Specifically, in my last build, I regret that I didn’t put enough points into Choking Ash in E1 (when the Levels come fast and furious) and so in E2, when I realized I needed more Ash, the levels came too slow to course correct very well. Also, I regretted focusing on Immolation in that last build too. While I feel that Immolation can be very powerful, you really need to drop a lot of points into it to be effective. Again, since levels come so much slower in E2, it meant that I was going through long slogs wishing I can level up again.


So, for this Karjtan build, I’m focusing on Burning Blades until it gets to Level 3 (cross AoE). Then, it’s all Choking Ash until it hits Level 5 (box AoE). It will then be back and forth between the two until Level 18 and then I’m going to focus on Firestorm. (Until then, I’m going to just rely on the basic Firebolt for damage.) I’m liking Firestorm on paper because you start off immediately with +11 accuracy (as opposed to waiting until Level 6 with Immolation) as well as a larger starting AoE and higher starting damage. As such, I feel that it can be fairly effective as soon as I get it and I can be less antsy about leveling up in E2. My long term goal is maxed Burning Blades and Choking Ash, as wel l as very high (if not also maxed) Firestorm. I might also start pumping up Pureflame Shield in the mid- / late-game to further help Fyona and Vraes.


So, sorry for the book, but that’s my share out.    I would love to hear people's thoughts.

[fallen]

Posts are great! Anyone want to port their post over to Steam under the Tips & Techniques section? It would really help show off the depth of tactics in Heroes!

I think the Vrase+Fyona vs. Tamilin+Kjartan may be one of the strongest combos out there ...

[En1gma]

Hobbiecat- I like the alternative style of the build, my only concern is that since there is no -ap moves, you will be taking a beating every turn... And since it sounds like you are beefing up many of KJ and Tam's non damage dealing moves very early, this means many more baddies will be putting the hurt on you early on... I wouldn't let their damage per turn get too dialed back personally, as Fyona will be hard pressed to recover all the extra damage from the baddies that aren't getting screened by your ranged attackers. Just my two cents, however, and I'm interested in how easy/difficult this build will be in the long term...

[En1gma]

I'm fully enjoying having both Selen and KJ as my ranged attackers, by the way- the added SP on Pinning Shot is certainly noticeable. However, a few points have been added into her intelligence, plus that shiny amulet from the farmhall, so the added drain isn't as big of an issue for now. I definitely understand the balancing of that ability now- especially if you were to pair it with both EA and Ash, so kudos on that one I wasn't sure how well PS would do in place of EA in my current game, but so far I'm impressed with how my above party is faring so far... Fighting the first Deathkin and so far so good!