Group build feedback and advice thread

[achilles73]

Jan 3, 2017 8:32:24 GMT -5 En1gma said:

I'm such an idiot. I feel like I've been playing wrong for years now. Post incoming.

Vhere is ze post?!

[En1gma]

Forget Vincent based  Strickening groups.  That's old hat, and the real group has been under my nose this entire time. CdrPlatypus , I might have found it.

Damage Core: Immolation, Burning Blades, Ash, Strickening, Torrent of Steel, Ranged Onslaught, Juggernaut.

Defensive Core: Dual Shields. Shield of Cortias, Consecrated Defense(?), Phalanx Shield or Skin, alternatively he could go heavy into Burst of Speed and Natural Mastery.

Curse Core: Ash, Immolation, Strickening, Silent Stalker, Torrent of Steel.

*********************

I don't know why this came upon me, but I need to get started on a boost in to test today.

Vraes goes heavy defense, or balanced. He wants to get setup for Juggernaut, but won't need BR to boost damage and crit, though he could use 2-4 points mid-late to get that extra boost.
--Phalanx plus Jugg lets him get over extended and not give a fuk. BoS lets him close the distance between mobs and rush archers if needed.
--You could run Skin/NM on him and go for a 2h build, or even that 3AP+2AP sword combo to go ham once Juggernaut comes online. fallen said any kill with a 5AP setup like that gives you an extra swing with the 3AP if the AP bonus procs. Still thinking on him, but if you wanted to sub Kincaid you could. This group will already have a great 1AP damage core in Tam. Having massive damage from big V means that since each elemental damage gets it own crit roll, it will fuel absolutely massive damage from Vraes, possibly reaching his max damage bands if we get this right.
--I like Phalanx and Maces for this group, 3 swings with its own set of crit/elemental chances wrecks face.

KJ has to find a way to get BB up without neglecting Ash to 5 and Immo to 10. Perhaps he ignores it altogether until later in the game, once he has his damage core online.
--KJ beats Vincent. Forget Energy Storm, I love it, but it's just not as good as Immo for this concept. Going all in on Elemental damage seems great, and it is, but the groups still need to overcome armor, and will eventually see a drop in damage.
--Ash overcomes Vincent's problem of only adding accuracy via Thundering Blades-- it removes Dodge/Parry, making it less important for the group to worry about accuracy.

Fyona wants to set her defense up early. This group will be a steady building sleeper until Strickening and BB come online, but that's fine. Even without the completed Damage Core, the group is far more stable due to early defensive focuses, and Ash/Immo dealing great damage, while allowing the group to take enemies down safely.
--She goes in on Shield of Cortias, bumps up ZS or CD depending on her needs-- CD isn't bad here because she is free to hit with impunity due to all the Parry coming off with Ash. One decent + Acc item and she hits consistently. Once she is set up for greatness, and can deal damage, tank reliably, it is time to get started on Strickening. Right around that time, KJ should be starting on Burning Blades. Synergy.
--Point into Reck for AoE AP removal.

Tamilin goes all in on Curse core/Crit building
--Torrent of Steel 5, gets Blacknight to 4 for +2 MP, all the while getting DI to 10 ASAFP. One or two points into SS gets her an Armor curse to supplement Ash, and ToS provides an early buff to Immolation by dropping Res before Strickening comes online.
--Torrent provides the only ranged AP curse, and her goal will be to get it to -2 AP eventually.


MATH TIME!!
--Ash 10, Immmo 10, BB 10, and Silent Stalker 6 gives -48 Armor. More than enough to cause massive damage, stripping most enemies completely, and causing - Armor values (doubling any damage done up to the neg value.)
--KJ on his own with BB 10 and Immo 10 gives essentially +22 Crit chance. (Immo applies negative crit resistance, so it evens out to +22)
----Let's look at Tamilin though! With Max BB and Immo, her Deadly Intuition maxed, she has an effective crit chance of 49% (27(DI)+6(BB)+16(Immo curse). Leave it at that and you flip a coin on any attack to make crit rolls on any physical damages, as well as any elemental damages. If you want perfect crit chances on Stealth rounds, all she needs is Silent Stalker 6 for 101% crit chance...

Vincent based Strickening builds, which are fast and furious, do not address late game concerns such as massive Armor piles and Accuracy concerns. I see them fizzling out once the enemies just have massive piles of dice to throw at defending your attacks. ES and Strick only add Elemental damages, and will only take you so far.

KJ based Strickening relies less heavily on Elemental Damages early on, instead taking everything the enemy could ever use to stop you in the first place. Armor will be nonexistent, Res gets absolutely nuked, and Dodge/Parry goes bye bye. Instead of trying to overcome defenses you remove them entirely, allowing every attack to be made at maximum damage, with Elemental damage being the icing on the cake and the nail in their coffin. This group will focus on dealing more damage than Electrickening ever could, just because Crits will multiply the damage already done by Elements by however much each gets from its separate Crit modifier.

[achilles73]

Jan 3, 2017 9:36:47 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Forget Vincent based  Strickening groups.  That's old hat, and the real group has been under my nose this entire time. CdrPlatypus , I might have found it.

Damage Core: Immolation, Burning Blades, Ash, Strickening, Torrent of Steel, Ranged Onslaught, Juggernaut.

Defensive Core: Dual Shields. Shield of Cortias, Consecrated Defense(?), Phalanx Shield or Skin, alternatively he could go heavy into Burst of Speed and Natural Mastery.

Curse Core: Ash, Immolation, Strickening, Silent Stalker, Torrent of Steel.

*********************

I don't know why this came upon me, but I need to get started on a boost in to test today.

Vraes goes heavy defense, or balanced. He wants to get setup for Juggernaut, but won't need BR to boost damage and crit, though he could use 2-4 points mid-late to get that extra boost.
--Phalanx plus Jugg lets him get over extended and not give a fuk. BoS lets him close the distance between mobs and rush archers if needed.
--You could run Skin/NM on him and go for a 2h build, or even that 3AP+2AP sword combo to go ham once Juggernaut comes online. fallen said any kill with a 5AP setup like that gives you an extra swing with the 3AP if the AP bonus procs. Still thinking on him, but if you wanted to sub Kincaid you could. This group will already have a great 1AP damage core in Tam. Having massive damage from big V means that since each elemental damage gets it own crit roll, it will fuel absolutely massive damage from Vraes, possibly reaching his max damage bands if we get this right.
--I like Phalanx and Maces for this group, 3 swings with its own set of crit/elemental chances wrecks face.

KJ has to find a way to get BB up without neglecting Ash to 5 and Immo to 10. Perhaps he ignores it altogether until later in the game, once he has his damage core online.
--KJ beats Vincent. Forget Energy Storm, I love it, but it's just not as good as Immo for this concept. Going all in on Elemental damage seems great, and it is, but the groups still need to overcome armor, and will eventually see a drop in damage.
--Ash overcomes Vincent's problem of only adding accuracy via Thundering Blades-- it removes Dodge/Parry, making it less important for the group to worry about accuracy.

Fyona wants to set her defense up early. This group will be a steady building sleeper until Strickening and BB come online, but that's fine. Even without the completed Damage Core, the group is far more stable due to early defensive focuses, and Ash/Immo dealing great damage, while allowing the group to take enemies down safely.
--She goes in on Shield of Cortias, bumps up ZS or CD depending on her needs-- CD isn't bad here because she is free to hit with impunity due to all the Parry coming off with Ash. One decent + Acc item and she hits consistently. Once she is set up for greatness, and can deal damage, tank reliably, it is time to get started on Strickening. Right around that time, KJ should be starting on Burning Blades. Synergy.
--Point into Reck for AoE AP removal.

Tamilin goes all in on Curse core/Crit building
--Torrent of Steel 5, gets Blacknight to 4 for +2 MP, all the while getting DI to 10 ASAFP. One or two points into SS gets her an Armor curse to supplement Ash, and ToS provides an early buff to Immolation by dropping Res before Strickening comes online.
--Torrent provides the only ranged AP curse, and her goal will be to get it to -2 AP eventually.


MATH TIME!!
--Ash 10, Immmo 10, BB 10, and Silent Stalker 6 gives -48 Armor. More than enough to cause massive damage, stripping most enemies completely, and causing - Armor values (doubling any damage done up to the neg value.)
--KJ on his own with BB 10 and Immo 10 gives essentially +22 Crit chance. (Immo applies negative crit resistance, so it evens out to +22)
----Let's look at Tamilin though! With Max BB and Immo, her Deadly Intuition maxed, she has an effective crit chance of 49% (27(DI)+6(BB)+16(Immo curse). Leave it at that and you flip a coin on any attack to make crit rolls on any physical damages, as well as any elemental damages. If you want perfect crit chances on Stealth rounds, all she needs is Silent Stalker 6 for 101% crit chance...

Vincent based Strickening builds, which are fast and furious, do not address late game concerns such as massive Armor piles and Accuracy concerns. I see them fizzling out once the enemies just have massive piles of dice to throw at defending your attacks. ES and Strick only add Elemental damages, and will only take you so far.

KJ based Strickening relies less heavily on Elemental Damages early on, instead taking everything the enemy could ever use to stop you in the first place. Armor will be nonexistent, Res gets absolutely nuked, and Dodge/Parry goes bye bye. Instead of trying to overcome defenses you remove them entirely, allowing every attack to be made at maximum damage, with Elemental damage being the icing on the cake and the nail in their coffin. This group will focus on dealing more damage than Electrickening ever could, just because Crits will multiply the damage already done by Elements by however much each gets from its separate Crit modifier.

Interesting. I still have a few concerns and perplexities.

First, why Vraes over Kincaid? Is this a function of your newfound appreciation of Juggernaut and nothing else?

Second, the big issue for me is survivability. On the one hand, including Kjartan means that you have a clear weak link you need to babysit - whereas Vincent with appropriate talents can take a few hits. On the other hand, and most important, I am not sure how crowd control will work without either Ethereal Anguish or Flash Freeze. I would think you need at least one of those two, given that they strip 2 APs, have long range, and do not require you to hit.

Perhaps I am a wimp, but this set-up seems to require too much finesse - at least for beginners

[En1gma]

"First, why Vraes over Kincaid? Is this a function of your newfound appreciation of Juggernaut and nothing else?"
-- Maybe, what of it? Honestly who you pick for the Fighter class will make little difference to the primary functions of the party.
- Vraes will provide ranged defense, and spearhead assaults. He would be able to let the enemy crowd around him so that the incoming AoE is as effective as possible. Also; I like Vraes. I know you haven't played him yet, but he is just ridiculous-- he gives zero fuks about incoming damage, and is able to use any weapon in the game. He is extremely flexible, despite only having a few possible roles to play on the team. I picked him for my run because by using 2-3-5 AP weapons, his Crit Damage multiplier rises accordingly.
- Remember that this team isn't meant to rely on elemental damage until later, so having someone who can deal immediate damage in the early game will be invaluable.

Kincaid would work just fine here, like he does for Elecktrickening. Having no armor to bypass is a huge boon for 1AP Dagger and TK Kincaid, and his crit multiplying talents only help his case. But to deal the kind of brute force damage that I want the fighter to deal for this group, he would need to forget TK altogether and dual wield. Kincaid would indeed be better in the early game, but for the long game, and looking to E3 and E4 where mobs have crazy defensive values, I want someone who will hit like a truck. For me, V wins the slot, but either would be fine.

Vincent is (almost) just as fragile as KJ, and either need to be "babysat", regardless of who you choose. Vincent is hardier because he gets Charged Speed and can get in and out of combat range, but leave him open to some ranged mobs and he still dies.

AP removal is only one facet of any group. While it is a very important facet, it is not the only thing to consider when planning a group. They will still be able to remove 2 AP with Torrent, and Fyona can use Reck to the same end. The entire point of this group would be defense by destruction and positioning. With Immo, ToS, and Onslaught, anything in range would be fair game to be taken down in a single turn. The other reason I wanted Vraes here is because of Phalanx Shield He effectively ignores 50+% of any ranged attack including any curses thrown his way.

[achilles73]

Jan 3, 2017 13:57:58 GMT -5 En1gma said:

"First, why Vraes over Kincaid? Is this a function of your newfound appreciation of Juggernaut and nothing else?"
-- Maybe, what of it? Honestly who you pick for the Fighter class will make little difference to the primary functions of the party.
- Vraes will provide ranged defense, and spearhead assaults. He would be able to let the enemy crowd around him so that the incoming AoE is as effective as possible. Also; I like Vraes. I know you haven't played him yet, but he is just ridiculous-- he gives zero fuks about incoming damage, and is able to use any weapon in the game. He is extremely flexible, despite only having a few possible roles to play on the team. I picked him for my run because by using 2-3-5 AP weapons, his Crit Damage multiplier rises accordingly.
- Remember that this team isn't meant to rely on elemental damage until later, so having someone who can deal immediate damage in the early game will be invaluable.

Kincaid would work just fine here, like he does for Elecktrickening. Having no armor to bypass is a huge boon for 1AP Dagger and TK Kincaid, and his crit multiplying talents only help his case. But to deal the kind of brute force damage that I want the fighter to deal for this group, he would need to forget TK altogether and dual wield. Kincaid would indeed be better in the early game, but for the long game, and looking to E3 and E4 where mobs have crazy defensive values, I want someone who will hit like a truck. For me, V wins the slot, but either would be fine.

Vincent is (almost) just as fragile as KJ, and either need to be "babysat", regardless of who you choose. Vincent is hardier because he gets Charged Speed and can get in and out of combat range, but leave him open to some ranged mobs and he still dies.

AP removal is only one facet of any group. While it is a very important facet, it is not the only thing to consider when planning a group. They will still be able to remove 2 AP with Torrent, and Fyona can use Reck to the same end. The entire point of this group would be defense by destruction and positioning. With Immo, ToS, and Onslaught, anything in range would be fair game to be taken down in a single turn. The other reason I wanted Vraes here is because of Phalanx Shield He effectively ignores 50+% of any ranged attack including any curses thrown his way.

Well, I guess I will have to try Vrase to be judge his worth relative to Kincaid. And I will do so. As I've said before, the only character I am unwilling to part from is Selen.

Still, I am not sure if I understand your entire reasoning for preferring Vrase over Kincaid - other than aesthetic - for this group. You say Kincaid won't deal "brute" damage with a throwing knife. So why not simply let him go town with a dual wield set-up? Even without an elemental build - and without Fyona - I was doing almost 50 percent crit and hitting crits at 700-plus toward the end of episode 4 with a 1 AP main-hand and a 2 AP off-hand. And he can AoE.

But I did not know that Phalanx Shield can ignore ranged curses. That slightly changes my perception of Vrase' usability, because I am cursed rather a lot in some fights, and wasting lots of APs on removal - whether via potions or removal spells.

I see more your point with Vincent still being fragile - though less fragile than Kjartan.

[En1gma]

For this group, yes; I want to try out what high levels of Juggernaut can do. Like I said above, the fighter is entirely up to preference as the core of the group doesn't rely on them. If you want Kincaid, he would do well with his TK, and crit boosting like I always play him, or he could dual wield. His AoE would also be handy, to be sure. For me, that's not what this group needs.
-Tamilin will have two terribly effective talents in Torrent and Ranged Onslaught.
-KJ will have maxed Immolation
-I'm more than comfortable with those three talents taking the standard AoE duties, and want the group to have effective single target damage.
--To that end, Juggernaut is the most effective single target attack between the two. No other talent in the game allows for the possibility of unlimited attacks, as the maximum levels of Jugg do. That alone is tempting enough, but the fact that it lets him run around a weakened battlefield with impunity makes it *exactly* what I want for this play through. Crushing Blow takes too many points, and only does damage. FEROCITY is great, but the group has no Sacrifice support. Kincaid has effective talents to deal with single and multiple targets, but they aren't what *I* want for the group.

For the group, I want Vraes to be the rock he always is. Phalanx Shield is where he shines here for me, as I want the ranged defenses it provides. No amount of Kincaid's Dodge bonuses can stop enemy curses, and tempo is always lost fixing him up. I don't need high damage dual wield for this group, as there will be no enemy defenses to overcome, again letting Vraes shine with a 1h weapon. I also want the fighter to be everywhere on the battlefield and while TK can help Kincaid with that, I've seen level 1 Jugg give Vraes essentially +3 MP, and it acts as its own SP drain effect...

All about preference...

[CdrPlatypus]

En1gma All depends on your goal and difficulty. Definitely a high damage group, but I find that Selen is the choice for Ironman runs

[olbrokenaxescotsman]

En1gma...great work as usual. with this build can Selen replace Tamlin without destroying the synergy. Really want to run with this group
thanks dude

[En1gma]

She could, just focus on Dance of Shadows and getting Pinning Shot 5 ASAP. She still crushes, but won't deal the same damage due to the crit levels being much lower.

[olbrokenaxescotsman]

En1gma your correct i am starting over with tamlin instead of Selen...shame I really liked her....

[En1gma]

I prefer Selen 95% of the time. Most groups benefit from her hardiness, and Pinning Shot is one of my favorite curses in the game.

It's important that Tamilin wins her Stealth rolls, so make sure she gets enough points into Stealth and focus very heavily on her gear.

If you put the @ symbol before someone's name it will tag them, so that's an easy way to make sure we see your posts. Good luck!

[olbrokenaxescotsman]

Thanks En1gma you really are a big help on the forums..you are right about the vincent-electric team it gets weaker with heavier ap enemies showing up.. now to begin a new game using your above team formula.

[mlw]

En1gma I have a similar group at Lvl 51 but with Vincent instead now at the end of current content.

You are right about the problems dealing with high armour enemies at this stage. I use Tami's Silent Stalker at a high level to remove some of the armour but it is single target and not as effective as KJ's Ash for this purpose.
Looking back at Vrae's build, I have max levels of Berserk, Juggernaut and Phalanx. The question I am facing is whether to start building NM or Skin? Skin is more for soak and NM more for avoidance. But Vraes will get hit by ranged regardless so maybe Skin is the way to go.

Starting a group with KJ replacing Vincent, so far upto the end of ep 1, the feel is that it is a slower game but safer because of PF Shield. Planning ahead, I will probably go with the same build for Vraes because Berserk and Juggernaut are just insane. The same question, Skin or NM after that? Maybe NM since he will have PF Shield to cover him?

[fallen]

mlw - be sure to consider NM for +Damage as well if you are carrying a Str-based weapon.

[mlw]

Yes, probably going with NM with this group. But I do like the self-healing aspect of Stone Skin.