Heroes - Live on Steam!

[fallen]

I really, really hope that everyone who is playing on Steam will leave us a review! We really need them! Be fair, be honest, please review!

[johndramey]

I absolutely swear I've been meaning to post my review. Honestly!

[fallen]

Thank you! We need them!

[johndramey]

Posted my review finally! I'll copy/paste it here, so you guys can read it and see what I said.

First, a small admission. I'm a huge Trese Brothers fan. I've logged tons and tons of hours on this game, but it's all on my phone so I'll review the phone game here, and later when I get around to finishing my ongoing games on the phone and play on steam I'll try to update this.

Anyways, this is definitely one of the old school style of games. What exactly does that mean? Well, it's pretty unforgiving, and at the higher difficulties it's pretty much impossible not to die. If you do, no big deal though! You can always replay your last turn or restore to the last resting point you used.

What do you get for your $12? Well, as of May 16th, 2014 you get 7 characters (2 variants of rogue, mage, and cleric and a single varient of a fighter) as well as 2 "episodes" of content. What is coming down the pipeline? 1 extra variant of the fighter class as well as 2 more episodes of content.

What exactly does all that mean? Each character has a totally different skill set, strengths, and strategies. For example, the two rogues play wildly different; one specializes in her bow and ranged battle while the other specializes in melee destruction. The two clerics are even more different, with one being a traditional support cleric and the other being a much more combat oriented paladin styled cleric. Each episode is made up of 2 main chapters, which are both long and challenging. I'll talk about the first episode so you can get an idea what I'm talking about. The first chapter of episode one sees you protecting a town from a Ratkin infestation and is a good solid 3-5 hours long. The second chapter of episode one finds your party undertaking a risky journey to a second village and running through a nest of lizard-men. This one lasts another 3-5 hours long. That means you can roughly expect the full 4 episodes (when they come) to last for about 12-15 hours for a single play through, and you'll want to do more than a single play through!

Now, I'm sure people will knock the game for being a port of a mobile game, but that's really not a big deal. The brothers built the game with the idea of eventually bringing it to the PC, and there are keyboard hotkeys. Not only that, but the entire game can very easily be played with the mouse. The graphics are nothing special in the realm of PC games, but if you are looking for a really fun, deep tactical RPG then you really can't go wrong with this game. On top of everything I've already covered you need to know about the Trese Brother's work ethic. They have 5 games (currently) out for Android/iPhone, and are getting ready to release a 6th. They've updated those 5 games a total of 642 times, each time is either tweaking the game in some way, adding content, or both. They are amazingly receptive to their players, if you head over to their forums (or post in the community group here) they are more than happy to chat with you and will take anything you say into consideration. I've been a Trese Brother follower for 2+ years, and have seen them passionately work on their games the entire time.

*edit*
Doh! Running into some problems. Posting in Bug report forum, thread here.

[John Robinson]

johndramey Looks great. Well balanced. It was really hard for me to strike a balance in reviewing HoS. Everybody knows I'm crazy
about the game. If I wasn't careful people would just give no creditably to the review, and write me off as a fanatic.
Which in fact I am. The 12-15 hour play time, I usually take longer, but that is because I'm so analytic about all the details,
it usually takes me a couple of days to reach Riven Field longer when playing Normal difficulty. Your review definitely
reads as objective, if I was new to Trese Brothers I would never know your secret obsession.

I'm looking forward to seeing the improved screen displays on the new release that just came out. I'm really soooo impressed
you counted up the updates. 642 times that is amazing! What you said about Trese Brothers work ethic is so true and would be a big encouragement for a first time purchase.
Once you play one you find yourself wanting another, certainly happened to me long before HoS. I own them all but have only
had time to play 3 of them, but that's my style.

Great Job on the review!

[johndramey]

Thanks! I actually got my problem sorted out and posted it up. I'm "USMC_Karl" on Steam, so go take a gander!

[fallen]

Wow, I saw someone today who has the Level 5, Godkiller Badge for Heroes of Steel! That means they've collected (must be, bought?) 5 sets of the cards! Crazy!

[nolost]

I finished Episode 1 recently and started Episode 2. I wrote a feedback post on Steam forum like a long review of episode 1, here another version, as bbcode isn't compatible I had to edit it, so shorten it for the occasion.

My general feeling on the episode 1:

The user interface was troubles to overcome when discovering the game. But after some hours I got more or less used to it. And then I had a great time with Episode 1, with few time of irritation during some combats because of some very random elements that I didn't found how manage them well :-) I enjoyed a lot the larges dungeons and areas, the numerous bits of lore, story development, and few characters developments. I enjoyed the feeling of freedom despite it’s not an open world RPG. I found combats great, but felt sometimes there was too much and sometimes it required force me make some pauses to let the fun to play them come back. I quoted it was important to not try put them quickly in your back but dig them and enjoy them, otherwise I doubt a player can enjoy this RPG because of the amounts of combats. But players like me enjoying Fantasy Squad turn based combats have a must play RPG with this one.

The most important points to quote:

• Great combats with an uncommon gameplay, with a great positioning gameplay rather deep and complicated. But for my tastes a few too random elements I felt sometimes unpleasant to manage.
  
• Very good exploring despite the exploration design doesn’t use all the common tools. The greatest point is the non linear and complex design of areas/dungeons. In most area many little tricks to find that trigger characters comments or dialogs, either on lore, or about the situation, or about the main plot, or even about the characters themselves. In some areas a great work with many secrets, I could write ton of secrets in few areas. Too bad this gameplay element, in episode 1, doesn’t use also some tricks like. More progression tricks and natural mini puzzles. More merging of combats and non combats encounters (the numerous characters comments compensate this). No environment interactions for both merged puzzles and tricky progression. Still overall the exploration is a quite good element, and it provides a refreshing feeling of large complex dungeons and areas.
• Very pleasant story telling with an exemplary merge of story and lore telling with the gameplay, by using the characters comments and dialogs. A solid story writing, very pleasant to read and not much indie RPG reach this quality level. But there’s no focus on trying cover some serious subjects and make the players think about them. Also, as in plenty Fantasy RPG, most of the story and lore has nothing very noteworthy and is more very conventional, but it’s pleasant stuff.
• Deep party building, still discovering the complexity, but if the depth is there, the classes designs are, for my taste, based on a too small number of talents (skills in many RPG), and too small number of mechanisms. Despite the low number of talents (10/11 per class and 7 classes with a 8th to come) the system is rather complex anyway because there’s also skills that are special attributes that reinforce some talents and this is opening complex builds. And the third elements are the attributes. As you level up you get more points of each three that you allocate as you want inside the class design.
• Huge RPG, but quote that it won’t be as dense and from far than quite shorter RPG as Dragonfall or Fallout 1, there’s an art of spreading and filling with keeping the feeling of diversity, but it’s the duty of all huge RPG.

About the user interface:

The game doesn't show its mobile origin through its gameplay because it's a deep gameplay with a lot of contents and polishing of design details. But its origin is totally obvious through its user interface. The dev are working on the problem. But right now it's not only a user interface showing its origin, but its also a quite bad user interface. In fact even for a tablet it would be a bad user interface, but on PC it is very bad.

It's an indie RPG and such game rarely have the interface polishing of AAA games. For example games like Avadon don't have a very good user interface but at least it's fairly good. In this game there's many wrong elements. Few examples: The game doesn't use at all the mouse right click, this is generating many little troubles solved by using it in many past PC RPG and since a long time. Probably the worse is the game use states with a limited number of turns, and they are hugely important in the gameplay, but to check the states of a character, you need 5 clicks, select the character, open a panel, open a second panel, sometimes you need scroll the states list, close the second panel, close the first panel. That's heavy and really pointless.

The game is still quite playable if you don't focus on the problem and take it cool. You end get used to all the problems, and don't noticed them too much, but they burden significantly the combats, you just don't notice it anymore. :-) The dev are still working on the game as there's two more episodes to come and dev quoted the PC players feedback on the problem. And they are willing to improve the situation. But for now that's a point you'll have to face.

[John Robinson]

nolost

I have a really terrific high res tablet, but find these days I'm playing HoS almost exclusively on Steam with a Laptop.
My biggest reasons are a much larger screen and much faster play using mouse/keyboard instead of pinch zoom, drag and tap.

I was wondering if you have used any of the Keyboard commands? You can view them on the main menu by clicking on "Key map".

You can select a specific character using the number keys 1 through 4.  Or faster still use the Spacebar to quickly cycle through them.
 
E - Will bring up the potions and scrolls screen. R - Character Status (the one I use most frequently during combat)

T - Talent list. G - For Glom/ Unglom. Spacebar - Next Character. Page Up/Down zoom in/out (I prefer the mouse wheel option).

ASD Are real time savers they activate your first 3 Quick Slots, other keys provide a total of 7.

F - Cancel using a quick list item.

I can see a much wider portion of the map view, but where it really counts is being able to quickly zoom in close with the
mouse wheel to not miss traps or secret doors, and then just as quickly zoom out again.  (Pinch zoom on tablets always takes longer for me)

I think they are starting to make good use of all the screen space you cannot get on a mobile device. This is really starting
to shine as more real time information aids are being added to the game since 2.1.47

I'm surprised I've never given any thought to using the right mouse button. I'll bet you have something good in mind I would very much like to hear it.

By the way I've played Avadon on the Tablet and PC so when comparing the two UI we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm glad you are taking the long view with HoS, the rapid numerous versions can be extraordinary.

[nolost]

Jun 8, 2014 1:08:14 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

I have a really terrific high res tablet, but find these days I'm playing HoS almost exclusively on Steam with a Laptop.
My biggest reasons are a much larger screen and much faster play using mouse/keyboard instead of pinch zoom, drag and tap....

Ha ha right it should be even more awful on tablet. :-) But it's relative. For similar game because tablets have smaller screen, no mouse hovering, no left click/righ click, more. Those game are bound to a tedious interface and in that context HS isn't that bad, it's main points possible on tablet and not done are one touch to get character states, and offer an action bar constantly shown with the selected action. Typically possible on tablet but not on mobile. Also such tablet game could offer some more direct access button, the two clicks to get the states is.... :-) So in context of tablets bad, but in context of PC it's very bad.

Jun 8, 2014 1:08:14 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

...I was wondering if you have used any of the Keyboard commands? You can view them on the main menu by clicking on "Key map"...

The new key map panel is very cool. With Mac or Mac and a French Keyboard, the keys are a total garbage and characters keys don't work. I didn't even bother report just because I don't want the dev put more time in that. I never use key controls if they can't be custom which would have solved the Mac/French keyboard problem. But it's out of context to implement custom controls, first point the interface can be excellent with mouse commands. Second point the only solution would be an external file more or less manageable by users but in context of Mac/PC even that is relatively complex and I prefer ignore the problems about those keys, and not have dev lost more time in that. With the current keys solution, the dev offered the base and for sure some PC players will enjoy it, some will use an external tool to custom them themselves, and some will use an English keyboard and will be fine with defaults. But it's not for me.

Jun 8, 2014 1:08:14 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

...I think they are starting to make good use of all the screen space you cannot get on a mobile device. This is really starting
to shine as more real time information aids are being added to the game since 2.1.47...

I don't see the progress as I started with Mac so was discovering the game when a new version was released which is now what I remember as I played previous only few days.

About use of space, an error of the game is to spread commands you need use often at all corners of the game, with a large screen it's awful. But yeah more information in some panels was better and I noticed in some panels more information that are quite handy.

Jun 8, 2014 1:08:14 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

...I'm surprised I've never given any thought to using the right mouse button. I'll bet you have something good in mind I would very much like to hear it....

There's many PC party RPG released before HS, and it makes me wonder if you really played them, I mean some.

The first point is HS has a plus not many of those past RPG tried do. This makes the equation a little more complicated. But it seems the game don't use actions on ground beside disarm trap, and this can simplify the equation. What would be interesting is to make a review of past RPG relatively similar to quote the various solutions. I think I'll do it but I'll first provide an example, perhaps it will have some bug/bad choice as not tested really, anyway.

The game choose itself which talent keep selected or not, this is very boring. I'm still doing error about that including between those that don't unselect during a turn but does for next turn, and those that don't unselect even at next turn. That's a wrong approach because it presuppose how the player play. The game should give both tools and let the player decide. In my opinion the best would be:

• Action bar constantly shown.
• Left Click select the talent until one usage.
• Right click select talent until end of turn.
• Also action bar should be at bottom, not on right because it's how did almost all PC RPG, large and plenty horizontal movements are a bit more comfort with a mouse or trackball than vertical.
  

Another option to left click/right click as described above, but I don't consider it good, but just better than current, or a complement at disposal of players. It's in panels talent, remove, the pointless squares at right and instead add custom player options, like an "Always keep selected" "Keep selected until end of turn" checkbox(s)/list choice.

About usage of right click. The game has two modes that generate a lot of troubles, it's waiting an action to trigger or not. That's where left/right click should put some order in it to avoid the garbage. The solution is different if the game allow do an action on ground or not, currently I quoted only disarm trap do this, so a version without any other actions like that could be:

Left click:

• Select a character (left click on character, no talent with friend target selected, do nothing if the character already selected)
• Move the character selected (left click on ground, and disarm trap not selected)
• Trigger the selected action on enemy (left click on an enemy, if no talent selected do nothing or a message at bottom mentioning no talent selected).
• Trigger the selected action on friend (left click on a character, if no friendly talent selected just select the character).
• Trigger the selected action on door/chest (left click on door/chest, open them if unlocked, or trigger the selected action, if a wrong talent is selected or none and it's unlocked, a message at bottom mentions locked or talent not working).
• Trigger the selected action on ground (left click on ground, disarm trap selected)
• Select a talent for one usage (left click on talent not selected, unselect the current talent automatically if one is selected).
• Unselect the selected talent (left click on a talent already selected).
• Trigger some interface action (left click on other interface buttons)
• Close information panel (left click anywhere, as it works currently with those panels)
  

Right click:

• Select a talent until end of turn (right click on talent not selected, unselect the current talent automatically if one is selected).
• Shows talent detailed panel (right click on talent already selected).
• Shows enemy detailed panel (right click on enemy)
• Shows character detailed panel (right click on character, don't select the character). This panel doesn't exist, would be like enemy detail panel but the number of turn left should be shown for each icon. Would be cool to also have the numbers on enemy panel.
• Unselect current selected talent (Click on ground, no talent selected shows a message to use left click to move selected character). An alternative is move the selected character (right click on ground) or even it could do nothing.
• Close all panels/series of panel opened ie go back to play screen (panel opened, right click outside any button control).

If the game have many actions to trigger on ground (like it should in my opinion with all AOE but well that can be argue as a constraint to manage) it must be different. In that case the focus is to dedicate a button to move and the other to trigger the action. I won't detail this case because I don't think the game use actions on ground beside disarm trap.

Now with what I suggest, this would also require have a cursor that changes, to solve the ambiguous cases depending of action selected. Ie one neutral cursor when no talent selected, one attack cursor when talent targeting enemy is selected, one friendly cursor when talent targeting friend is selected, one interaction cursor (when talent targeting other is selected ie ground+door+chest+any interactable item). The point of those cursors, is since 15 years PC RPG use the trick to be sure the player quote the current state of the mouse action. So PC players won't remind check what is selected, I still do a lot of error because of talents not unslected at end of turn.

But even without the cursor change, firstly it would fit much better the standards of similar games, and more important it would removed 75% of clicks and many causes of errors. But that solution requires add a detail information panel like enemies, and that quick panel must show for each state the icon and the number of turn left, at least for characters if it's a "feature" to hide it for enemies.

But clearly other schemes are possible. I don't think interactions relative to action bar and panels need be different. But if the game uses many actions on ground, similar games tend then dedicate a mouse button to trigger action and the other to move and select. That approach removes ambiguity between selecting a character and casting a friendly spell. And it makes clear interaction with ground, ie move or attempt an action. But get detail information commands are lost and need be spread on left click for enemy, and right click for friend unit. Or use an ambiguous case depending of selected action. As the game is what it is, and because it has only one action interaction with ground, I think it's important to get the details for both character and enemies so I think it's better dedicate right click to get details.

Jun 8, 2014 1:08:14 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

...By the way I've played Avadon on the Tablet and PC so when comparing the two UI we will have to agree to disagree...

Ha ha I won't bet I remind well, plus I write Avadon but the last I played is Avadon 2 and perhaps it changes some details. I'll make a review of various games, RPG party, and then will check also Avadon 1&2.

On old classics without Mac version as Temple of Elemental Evil, Neverwinter Night series, more, I'll probably skip, but I have a large selection to check anyway.

But the major interface flaw of the game is the states, and it's covered only partially with the suggestion of an info panel like enemies. But I wonder if since about 15 years and proably more, any PC RPG with states didn't used tricks to show them directly on play screen. The three main solutions I remind are list of icons states added shown for current character, small icons on character portrait shown in game (won't work if too many states are possible), visual clues shown on play screen like aura, light above head and more, some game succeed achieve it but it's a really difficult problem when many states are possible. And for those using states icons and tooltip can show a short description (now a modern game will tend show a detailed description through the tooltip.

EDIT: Another point very chocking on PC, drag is tedious, and scroll the screen only with drag is very chocking, many similar game use the mouse on border to move the screen. It's another bad use of mouse, showing the dev aren't used to design PC games.

[nolost]

The problem of arguing on the interface of the game, at least with PC point of view, is it pushes only mention what's negative. But I don't want do as the dev do it, ie ignore when the player do it good, and bash him when he does wrong (number of death count, lol). So some quite cool interface elements:

• Zoom in/out (beside scrollwheel not yet working on Mac) is greatly implemented, it makes wonder how it works for graphics. :-)
  
• Detailed information of a talent with a relative fast access. Almost all PC RPG rely on the player looking at the manual or from some special panel.
  
• Detailed information of an enemy. Many PC RPG just gave up on this.
• Top down view: The game shows the strength of this view, when Iso is hugely more popular on PC because it allows show more details in graphics. But Iso involves a lot of problem in managing obstacles that could hide something. In HS complex structures of dungeons/places exploit this advantage rather well.
  

[Deleted]

Well for my part, I love the PC version. The keyboard binding map is awesome, and so is the scroll wheel zoom. I've now posted a review of what I think on Steam.

[vintoks]

Any word if more keyboard commands will be added? A end turn keyboard button would especially be appreciated.

[fallen]

vintoks - currently, we are looking at adding key bindings for "Next Dialog" (probably space bar), and open Inventory. End Turn would be good, but I wonder if it is a dangerous key binding? Perhaps Shift+<another character> or, I worry that it would be too easy to accidentally end a turn.

[beuns]

ShadowRun Returns uses shift+enter to end turn and that works perfectly...