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Post by algesan on Aug 3, 2014 22:43:45 GMT -5
When I went to try 2AP light blade w/ thrown weapon combo with Kincaid, I noticed that he has no basic "Throw" skill like bows & melee weapons have. Which throwing only works for debuffs, which gets into the issues of a 2AP penalty for swapping in and out the weapons.
So, 7+1 AP.....swap in thrower (6AP)....toss at nearby mob (1+AP depending on hit and weapon AP)..swap in second melee weapon (5AP or less)...move into melee (4AP or less)...use melee skillz.
IOW, why bother? Especially kills the idea of a short range throwing specialist build (which still will be mainly melee since Kincaid is just built that way). While I'll often run Selen with a bow in hand, she at least has a chance to sink a few arrows in before she moves into whatever formation I'm planning on using.
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Post by fallen on Aug 3, 2014 22:51:11 GMT -5
algesan - I would never suggest changing weapons, armor or gear mid-combat for any character.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 3, 2014 23:05:48 GMT -5
I've been toying with a full on curse party with Kincaid using both 1 ap daggers and throwing knives, Selen as MBT, and Vincent cursing ap and boosting Thundering Blades to make sure there is penetration on Kincaid's weaponry. I'm also running Fyona as a Strickening/buff non-combatant unless she absolutely needs to jump in. Very interesting build, but if you work around your limitations it can work. I like cursing with the throwing knives, then using Crippling Strikes to keep the debuffs rolling. Selen also has to strip armor or Kincaid has issues with armored opponents since Choking Ash isn't in play. Fun and difficult build but I think it's viable...
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Post by Cory Trese on Aug 4, 2014 0:34:21 GMT -5
I've been toying with a full on curse party with Kincaid using both 1 ap daggers and throwing knives, Selen as MBT, and Vincent cursing ap and boosting Thundering Blades to make sure there is penetration on Kincaid's weaponry. I'm also running Fyona as a Strickening/buff non-combatant unless she absolutely needs to jump in. Very interesting build, but if you work around your limitations it can work. I like cursing with the throwing knives, then using Crippling Strikes to keep the debuffs rolling. Selen also has to strip armor or Kincaid has issues with armored opponents since Choking Ash isn't in play. Fun and difficult build but I think it's viable... The numbers line up like it is viable, but honestly this is not one that I had even thought of as a possible Nightmare build. It does appear that it would work, and later on you'll need big AoE from Vincent or major damage from Selen, but it's a solid concept, especially in places vs. Undead and Spiders where the main challenge is AP and enemy counts over Armor and HP. I'd say you'll struggle worst against Orcin and Trolls? |
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Post by Cory Trese on Aug 4, 2014 0:35:50 GMT -5
algesan - I would never suggest changing weapons, armor or gear mid-combat for any character. It really isn't a good strategy and clearly one we don't advocate because the UI for it is secondary, equipment screens primarily intended for non-combat use. The AP penalty is there mostly to stop exploits, not intended provide a balanced set of swap-based builds. |
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Post by contributor on Aug 4, 2014 2:16:17 GMT -5
algesan, I think the idea is that you don't swap out the throwing weapons. You use them in one hand with a more powerful 2AP blade in the other hand. I do find it odd that there's no basic Throwing Attack, but at the same time I would probably never use it. It's clearly designed to be used as a curse before closing to us your blades. Personally I'm really doubtful I'll ever use throwing weapons with Kincaid. He's got other great curses and I just don't see the costs as worth it.
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Post by algesan on Aug 4, 2014 10:07:29 GMT -5
Point missed. fallen gets partial credit for noting what the second part of my post was pointing out, that swapping weapons in and out during a fight (except maybe for Selen to put up her bow or Vraes to put away the shield to get the really BFH out for that boss). I thought the throwing was a slick idea myself and possibly worth going with a heavier blade (2AP) for more damage and throwing things as a regular combat concept, except:
Selen has a viable build as ranged/melee who can tank. In fact, one of my builds tends towards just that where Dodge buffed Selen stands with Vraes blocking the way to the squishies with the primary task of taking down as many annoying ranged mobs as possible and/or doing some creative Pin Shot AoE to weaken incoming. Occasional resort to Punish with that last AP (hey, it's there!) or just a quick Strike for fun. The only time the bow goes up is when it is time to get down and beat the crap out of those last high HP melee mobs. Most of her shots (and Tami's in those groups) are plain jane ones against normal, level appropriate mobs after the initial debuff. Save the mana sucking ones for the heavier duty Boss & Guard mobs.
Also, the tactical situation sometimes put Selen in a position to not be able to melee (narrow tunnel with NPCs crowding the exits) and she can swap to the bow to plink away a bit (which applies more to my pure melee built Selen without Pin). Kincaid must spend mana to keep recursing the stuff he just cursed last turn or, IMO much more intelligently, create a way to put him in front and the useful plinker in the back.
Kincaid could potentially go with a similar style with a thrown curse, basic throw and melee capability with dodge tanking...except with no basic throw skill, not a lot of point since the idea is to do damage while conserving mana. Which is quickly followed by the question of...other than a speciality build like listed above, WTH is the point to bothering with throwing weapons in general for most Kincaid builds?
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Post by fallen on Aug 4, 2014 11:48:58 GMT -5
Which is quickly followed by the question of...other than a speciality build like listed above, WTH is the point to bothering with throwing weapons in general for most Kincaid builds? Great question ... if you aren't going to specialize a build around throwing weapons, then I really wouldn't suggest using them! But then again, I would say the same thing about any weapon or Talent in the game. We will take a look at the balance of adding a basic attack for thrown weapons. |
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Post by contributor on Aug 4, 2014 11:56:56 GMT -5
The throwing weapon attack mentions that it is there to augment bladework. Does it change if you see it that way? It is there to put a curse on an enemy before you start attacking with your blade which is your primary attack weapon. It's not really designed as a primary damage dealer. I could see it fitting in to some builds like if you wanted to do Selen and Fyona as melee fighters with Vincent backing them up with Flash Freeze. Vincent doesn't do such a great job at doinking Dodge/Parry like KJ does. If you want to really unleash the ladies you need somebody to do some cursing first. Kincaid could stand behind them and curse until everyone is doinked and then move in behind them to attack. Hmmm I'm starting to get an idea for my "Replacements" team.
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Post by fallen on Aug 4, 2014 12:00:33 GMT -5
contributor - you've said it perfectly. It is not a bow talent, and I would not expect Kincaid to sit in the back and kill anyone with the Talent. He is a bladesman, and he does all of his killing up close. As it is Cursing attack, it is designed to encourage you to use it once (repeats are not getting a re-curse) and then get into the close fighting - the good stuff. Since there are 16 group combos, there are a number of group + Talent setups that could rely on Kincaid's cursing thrown weapons instead of relying on someone else.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 4, 2014 13:37:35 GMT -5
I really like the idea contributor had- and if you think about it, if you can either curse armor or boost damage with BB or TB then Kincaid can curse up to 7 mobs in one turn with 1ap TKs... This I would think is a perfect early game replacement for Ash and/or Pinning Shot. It's a very early AoE that can really be well used if you set up your team accordingly. |
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Post by algesan on Aug 5, 2014 7:54:43 GMT -5
Which is quickly followed by the question of...other than a speciality build like listed above, WTH is the point to bothering with throwing weapons in general for most Kincaid builds? Great question ... if you aren't going to specialize a build around throwing weapons, then I really wouldn't suggest using them! But then again, I would say the same thing about any weapon or Talent in the game. We will take a look at the balance of adding a basic attack for thrown weapons. fallen, this isn't really all at you...or mostly, but thanks for the look. My first thought would be that the 1AP versions might be too much DPS, but if that crops up in your number runs, possibly apply a penalty to normal throwing usage. A secondary thought...dump the need for a material component and make it a 2AP Range 3 attack straight up without the need to change weapons out. OTOH, I have a perfectly good Selen who doesn't have anything in bow skill, but as needed, does plinking work in chokepoints. Oh, and a perfectly good buff/curse Kjartan who with his buffs, curses, some gear and a big mana pool works well at plinking away with spare AP & FB1. Neither one are primary damage dealers with that attack, but it adds a ting of DPS at no mana cost. I'm looking at letting Kincaid have the same option when stuck behind someone else or some other reason. BTW, since I haven't tried it yet, does Kincaid's Stealth work to get him within 3 squares (throw range) or does he get the normal 6 (or 7 sometimes) that the Rogue classes get? Unless he can sneak the party closer, then I'll refer to my original post about swapping weapons in and out |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 5, 2014 8:09:34 GMT -5
fallen- are there supposed to be 1ap versions in weapon stores? All I see are 2ap versions....
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Post by fallen on Aug 5, 2014 9:27:49 GMT -5
En1gma - Kincaid starts with a 1 AP version, and they are in every store.
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Post by Cory Trese on Aug 6, 2014 13:52:29 GMT -5
I see 1AP versions all over. En1gma -- what game version, device and market? |
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