AI upgrade Idea

[Cory Trese]

Aug 25, 2014 12:58:20 GMT -5 Brutus Aurelius said:

So, in other words the only teamwork is every mob trying to kill you at once.

Correct. The emergent behavior in this case is that they start to look like they're working as a coordinated team, when really they're all just trying to mob you and kill your characters

"An emergent behavior can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective. If emergence happens over disparate size scales, then the reason is usually a causal relation across different scales. In other words there is often a form of top-down feedback in systems with emergent properties."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

[algesan]

Thanks Cory, that's the term.

Actually, I'm working in a square mostly since the advent of Selen. However, different tactical situations happen and I see similar anti-AoE formations as mobs move up, to the point where it doesn't matter if I'm in line ahead, line abreast, square, diamond, spread or whatever formation. If I can catch an group without archers (or archers way in the back) with Stealth while I'm in a good position, then I can step up a debuffer with cross AoE to good effect before stepping back out of arrow range **before they move**.

Note that this isn't a 100% thing, simply a very strong tendency, but I cannot think of one time in my recent playing where I've caught more than two mobs in a cross AoE without getting a Stealth ambush vs a group as described above, except when they are stuck sending out one NPC at a time to die mode (which IIRC, I only see in Ratkin around Oskahold).

Heh, fun test, turn the cross into a "X" and see what the AI does, because right now "X" would rock the house and I'd be voicing some concerns over stuff being OP. I'd definitely be playing my oldest NM group more than once in a great while.

[fallen]

As described by emergence, you're seeing patterns that may exist, but there is no anti-AoE code in the AI.

[tenbsmith]

An AI type could be coded so that each individual monster avoided ending the turn in a square horizontally or vertically adjacent to another monster (diagonal is allowed). This code would result in the emergent behavior of the checkerboard pattern. In this case, the checkerboard pattern would NOT be the result of a central AI directing units to "spread out... one grenade could kill you all." Rather, it would be the result of a clever programer providing instructions to AI's that thwarted cross-shaped AOE attacks.

PS. I'm really enjoying this thread thanks to the TB's playing and along and especially to Cory for the lesson on emergent behavior.

[CdrPlatypus]

ghosts in the machine

[Cory Trese]

Aug 26, 2014 18:44:21 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

An AI type could be coded so that each individual monster avoided ending the turn in a square horizontally or vertically adjacent to another monster (diagonal is allowed). This code would result in the emergent behavior of the checkerboard pattern. In this case, the checkerboard pattern would NOT be the result of a central AI directing units to "spread out... one grenade could kill you all." Rather, it would be the result of a clever programer providing instructions to AI's that thwarted cross-shaped AOE attacks.

PS. I'm really enjoying this thread thanks to the TB's playing and along and especially to Cory for the lesson on emergent behavior.

In that described case, however, I would not categorize that adjacency check's resulting pattern as an emergent behavior, but I think that distinction is academic really.

The AI could certainly be coded to assign additional 'desirability' points to tiles that had a particular property (adjacent to a monster in some way) but the current agents assign -1 to occupied squares, 1 to squares adjacent to a player, and 0 to all other tiles.

I've been studying this a bit and I think one of the leading causes of the behaviors is the similar move distances between the monsters. This cause them to spread out when the most direct path to a desirable (player adjacent) square is filled.

Randomization to break ties (when the agents ask, which character should I attack?) could also be a contributing factor. In this case you would see monsters break into groups and then block each other on the shortest path. If the next turn another tie occurred, and the randomization code made the inverse decision, those agents would again distribute, and with similar move ranges, block each other again.

[En1gma]

I don't like how the enemies line up sometimes, but I'm reminded of Sun Tzu- 'If you stare at the river long enough, the body of your enemy will float by'(?) With patience and skill in setting up your enemy, there are many chances for the use of the cross-shape AoE, at least in my games... You just need to be patient and give them enough rope to hang themselves with, figuratively speaking.

[mataeus]

Aug 26, 2014 23:01:04 GMT -5 En1gma said:

I don't like how the enemies line up sometimes, but I'm reminded of Sun Tzu- 'If you stare at the river long enough, the body of your enemy will float by'(?) With patience and skill in setting up your enemy, there are many chances for the use of the cross-shape AoE, at least in my games... You just need to be patient and give them enough rope to hang themselves with, figuratively speaking.

I find a great place for the '+' AoE attacks - Choking Ash for example - is at a choke point. There's some irony there I'm sure. If the monsters begin to file down the passage toward you, when they bunch up at the end and come in from all angles, you can often get most, if not all of the '+' covered.

[fallen]

En1gma - for me, I hit 3 enemies all the time with cross shape. Getting 4 or 5 is hard, but I feel good with "more than 50%".

And I hurry along for Choking Ash 5 Just got it with my new Nightmare group.

[En1gma]

fallen that seems like my average as well with the cross- I try not to cast on 2 mobs unless there is a priority enemy, and the only time I cast on one is if they're a serious threat. I like the cross AoE personally... It's obviously not as effective as the block, but when I hit 3 or 4 mobs I feel like I'm using the opportunities given to me as a player to go through. I love that this game is basically ALL chance, and that you need to develop your strategy around never knowing how a battle will pan out.

[fallen]

En1gma - so many ways to build a team, every battle unfolds differently I love the 9-box, but the SP cost is really hard.

[algesan]

Cory is correct, directly coding an "anti-grenade" check is not emergent behavior. The rest of his comment is interesting, because it does give a better explanation of how the "anti-grenade" pattern could develop (emerge) from the unconnected behaviors of each mob, especially seeing the drunken stagger pathing when trying to move the party across long distances. I'm assuming that each target square gets selected at the start of the turn to save cycles, which means as they zig zag forward (depending on orientation of target vs starting location) they would tend to pile up in checkerboard formation after A gets its spot, then B gets its spot,and poor C trying to zig zag in finds both zig & zag spots blocked and stops. It would also explain why these mobs don't expend all their AP/MP even when they could get a hit.

I'll check further, but I've been watching closer the past few days when I play and if the encounter occurs with the NPCs approaching from a cardinal direction (NSEW) or fairly close to it, I seem to see less checkerboard and have more chances to catch multiple mobs in the AoE.

Remember, checkerboard doesn't happen all the time, but enough that (at least on Nightmare) that I wonder if I should get some of what fallen & En1gma are using because two in one cast is good and three is a win. Also note that as soon as I get the 3x3 level (5th for CA IIRC), then this issue goes away because checkerboard doesn't help anymore.

The next question: Why does the NPC(s) sitting at 6-7 square range simply sit on its arse and allow multiple mobs from further back to bypass it even when there is enough room for it to make their way closer? Actually why does any NPC with an unblocked clear path with minimum movement cost simply sit there and not move? My current KKKS NM group fought one of those huge encounters in the vermin levels where only one or two Ratkin at a time would try to engage. Some kind of setting to stand on defense? Because except for the fact the singleton doesn't turn around and run (well, it didn't tend to survive, so maybe I just didn't see it), I'd say it almost looks like it is trying to "pull" my party into its camp.