Early play thoughts on Fyona talent spirit point cost

[rygar]

Haven't found a feedback section and so I'd posted it here. Please bear with me if this had already been brought up.

Am new to game and here's my observation on some early game play balance issue concerning the cost of using Fyona talents.

Specifically:

1)holy sickening. As a means of damage resistance rebuff in comparison to kjartan choking ash it is , IMO, in need of a tweak in cost of usage if not gameplay mechanic. Eg: lv5 CA cost is a low 13sp granting vs HS sp cost of a whopping 42sp.
 in terms of defense debuff, it's clear that  HS does less relative to what CA does.

and as a form of damage resistance debuff HS is arguably less impactful when u compare to CH armor debuff. Elemental damage comes in limited form , ie spells from Mage class or damage buff whereas armor debuff practically applies to all forms of damage in game.

essentially, for a comparatively less useful defense and damage resistance debuff talent in HS, you are penalizing it more by levying a higher sp cost.

the fact that Fyona gets less initial sp  and when leveling up also compound the issue.

2) shield of cortias lv5 sp 42 vs  warder shield lv sp30. Less stark in this case but still in terms of game impact ,arguably , maybe warder shield has the edge due to the mechanics of dodge being useful in both ranged and melee defence whereas parry , strong die notwithstanding , is only applicable in melee defense. So again, Fyona defence buff cost higher sp compared to another seemingly better talent.

There may be a cross class balance aspect here in that the design may tend toward penalizing the paladin sp cost as the paladin can melee comparatively  better than spell casters. But I think the initial sp pool and lower sp gain per level are by themselves ,balancing wise, enough. 

[Cory Trese]

Just so I'm clear, can you spell out what you mean by ...

CA => Choking Ash
HS => Holy Strickening
CH =>

[fallen]

rygar - thanks for the feedback. I think you're last paragraph is where the real rubber starts to hit the road. One-to-one comparing Talents between characters is misleading (try Savage Sweep vs. Lunge, ... or Holy Retribution vs. Firebolt). They are not meant to be equal, otherwise the entire balance of the game becomes kind of wooly and the distinctions are lost.

I agree that Fyona is not the strongest Debuffer or Buffer in the game. That is very clear, but very intentional.

However, I will double check the equations for the SP costs across Fyona's Talents.

[CdrPlatypus]

rygar RE Holy strickening: Unlike Choking Ash you cannot over curse with holy strickening. Once Resistance goes negative you begin doing extra damage. With Choking Ash there is no benefit gained from reducing armour below 0. If you combine Holy Strickening with Burning blades or Thundering Blades you can start to do really serious dmg. It requires a more complicated group build and takes longer to mature, but can be absolutely devastating especially if stacked with energy storm and thundering blades and +elemental dmg gear.

That said Choking ash is the best and most straightforward debuff in the game IMO as it benefits every character right off the bat.

fallen I do think Shield of Cortais SP cost should be reduced, that was a fair comparison

[fallen]

Nov 4, 2014 11:04:58 GMT -5 CdrPlatypus said:

fallen I do think Shield of Cortais SP cost should be reduced, that was a fair comparison

CdrPlatypus - I would maintain that there are no fair comparisons of Talents across characters. They are not meant to be equivalent. Still going to look at the SP, but I disagree with the second half of your statement

[Cory Trese]

Very good analysis of Resistance compared to Armor. In early game, Armor debuffs shine, but by mid/late game they are loosing some of their teeth, especially on Nightmare.

Choking Ash is very good, especially over the first 22 Levels of the Game.

When you're fighting Spectre Lords, it isn't so great -- and in that case, Holy Strickening is a much stronger spell.

[CdrPlatypus]

Combine Both and MAKE THE UNHOLY SUFFER!

[rygar]

Cory - my apologies if the abbreviations weren't so clear. CA- choking ash. HS - holy sickening . CH - beats me? ah a typo i goofed .I meant it as CA .

Fallen - I understand comparison can't be made by specific skill alone without considering the design of the character class. That is why I didn't bring up the design of HS in comparison to CA. Rather I was using the gameplay effect of one said defense and damage resist debuff (CA) as basis to evaluate the ,IMO, over costly sp requirement of another relatively underpowered defense and damage resist debuff(HS). I wasn't asking for HS to be as great as CA, just that it's sp cost to be reviewed. As another example, a maxed lv10 CA cost less sp than that lv5 HS. I think it really highlight that HS sp cost need to be reviewed.

Gundamgoth - it is new to me that resistance can go into negative. I thought resistance debuff works just as armor, once it hit 0 then it's just over doing it. The component that can be negative is actually the specific element debuff ie holy, lightning resist etc. can someone confirm on this?
In any case ,especially at higher difficulty mode , to even match the average resistance of mobs, much less to cause deficit , u need to drop points into HS. That means a higher bill in terms of sp. I find that between her buffing , which I already ration depending on mob , and her selective using of HS on groups Fyona is still chugging a lot more spirit pots than Vincent.

[CdrPlatypus]

rygar Correct however higher levels of holy strickening causes negative all resists rather than one specific element. negative "x" resist"y"element = 2x dmg done by "y"element. Choking Ash reduces your enemies soak but Holy strickening will eventually increase dmg done as well as reduce soak. Holy strickening reduces dodge, reduces magic dmg soak and applies a magic weakness curse. Choking Ash reduces armour (part of the physical soak equation there is also toughness, but there are no talents in game that modify it atm) dodge, and parry.

Also you will find at higher difficulty modes it is very hard to make a character a jack of all trades. I think the exception to this would be kyera, but otherwise you have to pick something and stick with it When I want to use holy strickening in a build it is where the majority of my points go and I keep Fyona just behind the front lines. If I want a super tank build everything goes into shield of cortais and maybe a point or 2 into Consecrated Defense. etc

[crimsonking]

Multiple weaknesses can be easily exploited with multi element attacks. Of course you need a very high level Holy Strickening for that, but when you reach that, it will really shine.

In general, when going for physical damage, Choking is will be stronger, and +elemental damage items will be close to useless, except for those stuff that enhances elemental damage already dealt. When going for elemental damage, Holy Strickening becomes the better choice, especially when combined with several items adding different elemental damage.

Beyond that, I too consider the SP cost of Strickening as a bit too high.

[En1gma]

Strickening needs to be expensive, and REQUIRES that the group be built around it. Ash is necessary for pretty much every build I can think of, and is useful to have in every situation.

If used correctly it is a true damage -multiplier-, whereas Ash is an -armor decreasing- spell. Ash just increases the base damage you can do, not adding anything to damage- just removing what prevents it. Strickening actually ends up doubling the elemental damage the group does, and when coupled with Burning Blades or Thundering Blades, damage quickly gets out of hand.

Now put the two together...

[En1gma]

I think I just gave myself my next group idea, brb starting ANOTHER new game....

[fallen]

En1gma - lol

[plunk]

Specific resists will only add extra damage up to the negative value.

So unless the game somehow introduces accessories that grant 30 elemental damage that is not Fire, Lightning. And in the case of Fyona, Holy. You're looking at a 32 extra (16 from -16 Fire/Lightning Resist and -16 from Holy Resist) + 18 (average, 22/2 + (1+22/2)/2) + some minor numbers from accessories. So 50+ for Fyona. And subtract 16 for everyone else.

[vdx]

Nov 4, 2014 11:57:58 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Very good analysis of Resistance compared to Armor. In early game, Armor debuffs shine, but by mid/late game they are loosing some of their teeth, especially on Nightmare.

Choking Ash is very good, especially over the first 22 Levels of the Game.

When you're fighting Spectre Lords, it isn't so great -- and in that case, Holy Strickening is a much stronger spell.

Thanks for the heads up about Spectre Lords.....