athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611 
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Post by athios on Apr 16, 2017 0:08:33 GMT -5
Not sure if it was done this way for some performance reason, but the currently set check-interval for Fog clearance is very slow (maybe 1 check per 6-8 blocks?). If there is some black patch in between two planets whose distances are the same as the check-interval, I can fly back and forth indefinitely and they never get cleared.
I can get a much better clearance of Fog of War by manually pausing and restarting Navigation while traveling rather than letting the system do it itself. It's tedious, but for people like me with this type of OCD leaning, we are gonna do it regardless. The thing is, it's not fun, and I don't really understand the point of the Fog. There's no obvious benefit (from the UI anyway) of exploring uncharted space, and the hidden planets are typically low quality anyway. I've only found 1 hidden planet that was actually quite strategically useful. Why not do away with the Fog altogether?
If that's not an option, can the check-interval be doubled to like 1 check per 3-4 blocks?
Another option is instead of a circular "ping" at each check-interval, calculate a vector between current location and location of the last ping, and clear all the Fog in between those two points.
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Post by grävling on Apr 16, 2017 5:54:35 GMT -5
I think the foggy planets are more useful if you are an explorer. But I don't play explorers much.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 16, 2017 8:16:41 GMT -5
That entire system being scrapped in phase 3. No need to worry about changing it.
Why not do away with the fog entirely?
We tried that already and it was bad. The fog system does serve a valuable purpose.
...
At this point is it ...
Pretty enough? No.
Performant enough? No.
...
We will look hard at the question of "are we hiding enough" worlds. If you're not finding value in worlds, then we're not hiding enough.
There is no "check interval" to adjust. Defog is done when the currently occupied square is fog. No need to report bugs on this or discuss, it is an ALPHA PHASE 1 code block that won't survive.
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Post by grävling on Apr 16, 2017 9:13:33 GMT -5
I'd like to try having a mission that requires travelling to a hidden planet. You know what quadrant, but no more. When you get kind of close to the hidden one it reveals itself. So you don't have to compulsively vaccuum the system looking for a small target in a lot of empty space -- which would be tedious -- but you would have to discover the planet, which would be fun. (I predict, without trying it.)
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Post by fallen on Apr 16, 2017 11:47:35 GMT -5
I'd like to try having a mission that requires travelling to a hidden planet. You know what quadrant, but no more. When you get kind of close to the hidden one it reveals itself. So you don't have to compulsively vaccuum the system looking for a small target in a lot of empty space -- which would be tedious -- but you would have to discover the planet, which would be fun. (I predict, without trying it.) If you enter a Quadrant with a Mission on a planet, that planet is immediately defogged. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 16, 2017 11:58:51 GMT -5
Aha. That will explain why athios and I are not finding that many hidden planets. The missions are exposing them for us. So my suggestion is to stop doing that, I guess.  |
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Post by MintDragon on Apr 16, 2017 12:42:24 GMT -5
Aha. That will explain why athios and I are not finding that many hidden planets. The missions are exposing them for us. So my suggestion is to stop doing that, I guess. Or, more missions that unfog planets vs trotting through a map and already seeing close to 100% of the map. Wondering about the value/intrigue of going through a new map with only an 'auto-navigation' warp gate unfogged. |
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Post by fallen on Apr 16, 2017 13:09:35 GMT -5
Aha. That will explain why athios and I are not finding that many hidden planets. The missions are exposing them for us. So my suggestion is to stop doing that, I guess. That isn't something we'll be doing. You already set a waypoint to the world. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 16, 2017 15:31:29 GMT -5
Yes, that was the idea. A mission to a place you cannot set a waypoint to, because neither you nor the person giving you the mission knows exactly where it is.
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Post by fallen on Apr 16, 2017 15:43:41 GMT -5
Yep, we had discussed this in design and descoped it.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 16, 2017 23:33:31 GMT -5
We did try both the "defog everything" and "defog nothing" approaches before the alpha launch.
We settled on "defog necessary" which we came to believe included Fuel and Missions.
We could adjust the logic around "necessary" but having tested it both ways -- defogging mission destinations is mandatory.
To unwrap the design elements that built upon that is out of the question.
The task now is to decide what we want to defog for new quadrants. Is "anywhere that sells fuel" too generous?
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Post by MintDragon on Apr 17, 2017 0:08:57 GMT -5
The task now is to decide what we want to defog for new quadrants. Is "anywhere that sells fuel" too generous? Just a knee-jerk reaction, but I see value in exploring quadrants; and the fun (errrr... pain) associated with finding a fueling station/potential trading colonies before I can leave a quadrant I've never been to. Would affect how I invest in discovering quadrants/planning longer trips/etc. Would also place a greater need for the UI (Galaxy Map) to indicate quadrants already visited. And maybe a button popup to show the Galaxy Map routing for missions prior to accepting them. First thoughts late at night. |
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Post by MintDragon on Apr 17, 2017 0:13:23 GMT -5
Haha. Didn't answer your question.
"anywhere that sells fuel" might be too generous for de-fogging. Or maybe have less planets that sell fuel?
I'm thinking of an impact on the decision making of accepting a mission that goes through 3 untravelled/unknown quadrants a real decision point. "maybe I shouldn't accept such a far destination mission before I expand my Galactic Atlas. What if I can't find a planet to refuel or trade all this methane fuel?"
I kind of like the discovery of ST4X maps tho, so feel free to consider me biased.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 17, 2017 1:04:39 GMT -5
The solution isn't to reduce fuel provider density in map gen -- that I know for certain.
What I'm not looking for is a scope increase that we cannot afford, I have to keep all of my thinking inside the design and budget.
Ideas outside that scope are fun, but ultimately out of reach.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 17, 2017 1:07:20 GMT -5
Perhaps the solution is to provide the player defog services on the top # of planets in a quadrant, instead of every planet that meets a minimum.
Say every starchart has at least the best 5 planets for fuel in all the known Quadrants.
Perhaps that number is even scaled by difficulty. That would mean that quadrants with 20 worlds would have a large number hidden, however, the player would have some immediate information.
Depending on the number used, we would change the planets visible. If we set it high enough (8) we'd rarely see it hit. If we set it lower like 3, we'd have a lot of information trimmed.
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