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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 17, 2017 13:32:29 GMT -5
Ok, that's a great point. I will test that -- what if Indy worlds, regardless of Starport, aren't listed on star charts.
That would be really interesting.
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Post by grävling on Apr 17, 2017 13:36:58 GMT -5
Ok, that's a great point. I will test that -- what if Indy worlds, regardless of Starport, aren't listed on star charts. That would be really interesting.
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Post by xdesperado on Apr 17, 2017 13:44:31 GMT -5
athios - very interesting. We are definitely open to suggestions for other defogging rulesets, so that's a pretty good one. Due to the nature of the galaxy being interstellar commerce, war, and travel -- it is unreasonable to fog too much. This information is available in Starports and Spicehalls across the Quadrants. This is exactly why in my games I'd prefer no fog at all. My name isn't freaking Jean-Luc Quirk of the Starship Wenterprize! and I'm not on some frigging 5000 year mission to discover strange blue women and boldly go where no man (or badger, cat, sheep, rabbit, crow etc.) has gone before!Simply put I'm far from the first Startrader to travel this space, it was all mapped out long ago and I'm firing my Navigation officer out the airlock if he/she failed to get a fully detailed and updated quadrant map every time we land on a rock that supports any sort of fuel depot or spice hall.
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Post by fallen on Apr 17, 2017 13:53:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by tenbsmith on Apr 17, 2017 14:10:41 GMT -5
I like the idea of independent planets being fogged, but could there be a couple of other factors involved. Like maybe...
--independent planets in the player's starting quadrant are UNfogged (good for new players to learn about independents).
--planets with small population/economy, far from the player's starting quadrant, and NOT the player's faction are fogged.
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Post by John Robinson on Apr 17, 2017 15:12:26 GMT -5
The real question is what motivates a player to explore unknown parts of a vast quadrant?
Fogged Indy: Tell that to the captain with a severely wounded crew from multiple ship combats. repeated radiation storms, or post crew combat in desperate need of a doctor. I have often been on missions where every planet in the quadrant is hostile to me because they all belong to the same faction/syndicate. We can't be everybody's friends. If you lose refuel/repair/heal rights across an entire quadrant, missions beyond that quadrant will be more difficult than they need to be. The only place I could get repairs/refueled and healed was on the single indy planet in the quadrant.
In my current game I have +Rep with every faction except Javat with a -1,236. The problem is they control one of the choke point quadrants, space lane crossroads. Every planet in it is Javat with a single Indy for me to use. The entrance and exit gates are widely spaced apart. I get attacked by ships all the way across. With escape close at hand a Zeno usually attacks. If a bounty, patrol, blockade, spy or explore mission goes sour I've got allot of healing/morale/ship repairs. I'm not even going into trade options.
How many people have started in the bottom left quadrant with only one way in and one way out? One game the next quadrant over was completely Cadar save two Indies. They decided to put me on the wanted posters. I couldn't get into our out of my home quadrant without passing through it. So should I have avoided all missions that might risk -rep with Cadar? I find that too inflexible. Truth is, I am a new player on basic difficulty how does this make me happy? I'm just learning how to play each version as it comes out adding huge depth in interactions.
Fogged Wilderness?: Maybe a few completely wild planets of extraordinary once in a life time discoveries. The type where the old prospector comes into town after twenty years striking it rich at last.
Hidden Gates?: Perhaps you find a shortcut from one Quadrant to another far distant one having discovered a hidden gate. Maybe the forces warp it enough that the gate keeps moving around. I'm not fond of either idea, just shooting from the hip for reasons to explore the fog.
Like it the way it is?: Yes, Why? "Games so deep you have to swim out of it" (recent twitch). There is so much more coming, I would rather concentrate my time, testing, and enjoyment of the game diving into the new content, instead of wasting time trying to find a safe place to refuel, heal or repair. This boat is rocking enough let's not tip it over.
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Post by John Robinson on Apr 17, 2017 15:53:58 GMT -5
Ok, that's a great point. I will test that -- what if Indy worlds, regardless of Starport, aren't listed on star charts. That would be really interesting.
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Post by fallen on Apr 17, 2017 15:55:18 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for sharing their suggestions and feedback! Always so helpful.
We'll keep trying to improve!
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Post by Officer Genious on Apr 17, 2017 18:04:49 GMT -5
The real question is what motivates a player to explore unknown parts of a vast quadrant? Fogged Indy: Tell that to the captain with a severely wounded crew from multiple ship combats. repeated radiation storms, or post crew combat in desperate need of a doctor. I have often been on missions where every planet in the quadrant is hostile to me because they all belong to the same faction/syndicate. We can't be everybody's friends. If you lose refuel/repair/heal rights across an entire quadrant, missions beyond that quadrant will be more difficult than they need to be. The only place I could get repairs/refueled and healed was on the single indy planet in the quadrant. In my current game I have +Rep with every faction except Javat with a -1,236. The problem is they control one of the choke point quadrants, space lane crossroads. Every planet in it is Javat with a single Indy for me to use. The entrance and exit gates are widely spaced apart. I get attacked by ships all the way across. With escape close at hand a Zeno usually attacks. If a bounty, patrol, blockade, spy or explore mission goes sour I've got allot of healing/morale/ship repairs. I'm not even going into trade options. How many people have started in the bottom left quadrant with only one way in and one way out? One game the next quadrant over was completely Cadar save two Indies. They decided to put me on the wanted posters. I couldn't get into our out of my home quadrant without passing through it. So should I have avoided all missions that might risk -rep with Cadar? I find that too inflexible. Truth is, I am a new player on basic difficulty how does this make me happy? I'm just learning how to play each version as it comes out adding huge depth in interactions. Fogged Wilderness?: Maybe a few completely wild planets of extraordinary once in a life time discoveries. The type where the old prospector comes into town after twenty years striking it rich at last. Hidden Gates?: Perhaps you find a shortcut from one Quadrant to another far distant one having discovered a hidden gate. Maybe the forces warp it enough that the gate keeps moving around. I'm not fond of either idea, just shooting from the hip for reasons to explore the fog. Like it the way it is?: Yes, Why? "Games so deep you have to swim out of it" (recent twitch). There is so much more coming, I would rather concentrate my time, testing, and enjoyment of the game diving into the new content, instead of wasting time trying to find a safe place to refuel, heal or repair. This boat is rocking enough let's not tip it over. To play devil's advocate I'd say that teaming against Javat is your problem because they control such a major point. On the other hand, that's exactly what a newer player would do, and it's important to note that. That being said, I'd look at making Indy ports below a certain threshold not show up on maps. That way, there would be a reason to explore bad space even if you get attacked, and hopefully you find a tiny Indy planet before you set off a faction. But on the other hand again, that's added complexity for new players that would turn them away. What if clearing fog have minor xp or a small chance of random loot? Like you find a wreckage and scavenge some illegal spice?
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Post by John Robinson on Apr 17, 2017 19:21:58 GMT -5
To play devil's advocate I'd say that teaming against Javat is your problem because they control such a major point. On the other hand, that's exactly what a newer player would do, and it's important to note that. That being said, I'd look at making Indy ports below a certain threshold not show up on maps. That way, there would be a reason to explore bad space even if you get attacked, and hopefully you find a tiny Indy planet before you set off a faction. But on the other hand again, that's added complexity for new players that would turn them away. What if clearing fog have minor xp or a small chance of random loot? Like you find a wreckage and scavenge some illegal spice? How do we reward players who want to explore the fog without penalizing those who don't? Bingo Officer Genious nails it! "What if clearing fog have minor xp or a small chance of random loot? Like you find a wreckage and scavenge some illegal spice?" Anything like this is great, because it doesn't restrict play choices. This reminds me of HoS. Some like my wife just aren't happy unless they scour every square inch of a map for treasure. I play differently. There is a Krete area (and others) I want to get through a.s.a.p. I'll take the fastest straight line possible to get the heck out of there. Note to devils advocate: My map is 18 quadrants with 7 factions. There is more than one choke point. For example Rychart has complete dominance of such a quadrant except for a single Indie planet. Lucky I'm on good terms with them? Some days it's not worth getting out of bed and fueling up the ol'Juror Hahaha
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 18, 2017 0:30:52 GMT -5
If it's going to end up being hinged on a threshold of some kind, might be nice to have the threshold level tied to the game difficulty. i.e. Higher difficulty, more planets hidden.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 18, 2017 8:34:19 GMT -5
If it's going to end up being hinged on a threshold of some kind, might be nice to have the threshold level tied to the game difficulty. i.e. Higher difficulty, more planets hidden. I do think this is a good approach.
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 18, 2017 9:54:53 GMT -5
John Robinson makes a good point that sometimes hiding planets and making people who are desperate for fuel/repairs/healing going hunting blindly is a bad situation. Perhaps one more possible route, if the engine supports it, is instead of hiding certain planets in fog completely, make the planet itself visible (with a ?), but hide the Faction and settlement type info. Not sure how much I like this idea though, since it doesn't make sense game-wise for you find out that there's a planet but not know what's on it. Also, I assume this is a lot more work to implement.
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 18, 2017 13:07:17 GMT -5
no one should have to hunt. planets that can supply those things are shown on the map already.
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Post by grävling on Apr 20, 2017 2:15:45 GMT -5
First 2.0 game. My chars are only level 3 and I have already found an incredibly worthwhile Indie Large Pop Centre. Yay! Much more fun.
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