Unknowable sources of constant death

[DaReaper95]

There's a lot going on with different rolls and tests that isn't really explained on any of the screens or even in the logs. We're told we're passing or failing tests but not what the penalties or consequences of these passes and failures are. Sometimes these tests are quite punishing, as I land and I find I have several thousand credits worth of repairs that need to be done. Other times I can't really tell what, if anything, happened. 

Similarly, there are sources of crew health and moral damage (I'm going to guess at least some of the time I'm experiencing this it's from being undermanned in certain fields) that don't really make sense and can break immersion rather quickly. I don't know why I suddenly have 6 crew members that are low health. I just do and they need a doctor? Okay. 

This might be slightly less of a problem if some of my landings that are supposed to be quick pit stops for water fuel and to pay my crew didn't somehow turn into 6 week time vacuums that leave me unable to complete a mission on time and now battling uphill against the credit void. So much currency goes into unexplained maintenance just from flying from point A to point B that I can complete a mission and, in the time it takes me to find the next paying job, be completely out of funds without having even had an incident of combat or catastrophe aside from the seeming trauma that is flying from point A to point B.

It's very very frustrating, not because it is difficult, but because without an explanation as to what it is that is causing each incident, there's no way to learn from it and better prepare for next time. It can vary so wildly as well. Sometimes my repair bill is $90, sometimes it's $3000 and I haven't even been hit.

Additionally, it's very confusing to me when I, a loyal Cadar Syndicate man, am flying, without hostile intent through Cadar Syndicate space, encounter a vessel of another Syndicate or one of the clans, ignore them and carry on my way, but somehow lose reputation. De Valto has a problem with one of their smugglers, who is flying through my space, being let slide because I'm not armed to take them in or I'm in a hurry to get somewhere else? That seems very, very silly.

I know you guys have a lot on your plate in fixing and adding all kinds of features, but as I spend more and more time playing this one becomes more and more of an issue for me, and I very much await the interaction overhaul treatment that CK got.

[DaReaper95]

So to give an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, this is at the very start of a new game, after I landed on the first planet I spawned on, hired up an extra Crew Dog, took a delivery mission, and flew a very short distance to a planet in the same quadrant. My crew is already so close to dead that between paying them at the end of this mission, and healing them, I'm going to be at a deficit. What is so hazardous that it's killing everybody off? I even made sure to make one of my Officers a Doctor.

[DaReaper95]

As you'll see here, I never even failed any kind of Doctor test, so there is no explanation as to how my crew is so injured after flying from point A to point B, they simply are.

[fallen]

DaReaper95 - looks like there was a failed Intimidate test, which will cause loss of Morale.

We'll review the travel events to make sure every one is putting out an event log, it sounds most likely that there are some that are not.

What difficulty are you playing on? Are you investing in Skill-saving Talents?

EDIT: ok, found 2 --

Understaffed Electronics pass/fail
Understaffed Ship Ops pass/fail

We're working on improving that event list so that it shows less but allows you to pop it out for extended details.

[DaReaper95]

I understood that there was a failed intimidate for morale loss. What I don't understand is A.) what am I rolling against? What is happening or not happening to cause morale loss? These rolls are fairly regular, so do they not need a triggering event, and if that is the case then is there any way for me to know when the next roll will be? Sometimes they happen back to back to back, other times they are spread out.

But my big question with these SS is why is most of my crew almost dead? We haven't even flow very far. A few days at most, with a doctor, and we passed the doctor test, pilot test, and repair test. That's the entire game so far. You can see that I landed where I spawned (after distributing talents), took a mission, and now I'm at that mission's location, almost dead.

I am playing on Brutal, but even then, I'm generally not expecting straight line flying to be the death of me.

I do invest in Skill-saving talents, and try to have it set up so that at least 1 save of each type is available. This isn't possible for me right out of the gun, so usually intimidate, command, stealth etc don't have a save until I have a few levels under me in my officers cabin, but once I do, that's the setup I go for. Here, for example, had I failed the pilot or doctor test, I would have gotten a talent save.

[DaReaper95]

Ok. Glad to see improvements for it are in the pipeline, as it is confusing atm and doesn't really lend to the discovery aspect of the game. On a difficulty note, the penalty is more punishing then than one would expect. This was at the very start of a run. Might be something to revisit balance wise when you have the time. I am aware that the juror class is both A.) not meant to be particularly viable due to its small size, and B.) not a high priority right now (you talked about even potentially award locking it so people wouldn't touch it) but it seems like there was a lot of damage meted out very quickly over what should be smooth sailing.

Thinking further on that, are the understaffed Crew Ops and Electronics tests that were failed not being considered for a talent save? As both should have been saved by my crew talents, then.

[fallen]

DaReaper95 - thanks for the feedback.

Any space travel is dangerous. Any failed save is likely to lead to 1) crew damage 2) crew morale loss and 3) ship damage. Social saves like Intimidate will lead to mostly Morale loss, but can also result in crew damage. Let your imagination take you on this. There is a disagreement on board about something between some of the crew, and you have a chance to head it off. You fail, it turns into an altercation that breeds resentment and maybe even someone is injured. You fail an Electronics save and a ship component malfunctions, explodes -- cause both crew damage, morale loss, and ship damage. When you accept the danger of long distance travel through space, then I hope you'll find these more inline with the game's immersion.

You are right about Ship Ops and Electronics, for some reason (unlike all other Skills) if you are understaffed, they skip the talent. That is now fixed.


Ps. also any failed test can cause delays and increase fuel use for traveling.

Also, life in space is unpredictable, these events are happening often but not on a predictable schedule. The officer's can't check the console and say "oh, 20 minutes to trouble!"

[DaReaper95]

Those are all fair points. But to rebut, if I know I have to deliver a package in a few weeks, can't I have the ship get repaired while the crew gets patched up and I handle the paperwork of paying them? Seems kinda silly that a pit stop takes 3 months

I want challenge. That's why I play on brutal. I just feel, personally, that it is more satisfying when the majority of that challenge comes from active sources, like battles, the card game, and random encounters, than having my entire reserve of cash be eaten away entirely by rolls behind the scenes before anything I get to interact with even occurs. There's plenty of challenge soaked into engagements and exploration as is, and the high frequency of these rolls and the rate at which they eat my resources feels like it's just an artificial barrier preventing me from getting myself killed in other, more active ways. In my mind, a ship in good repair shouldn't have parts regularly exploding to the point where a week long journey across the sector has 6 different rolls.

My opinion may be far from the norm. Just thought it worth voicing while we're still in those early stages

[fallen]

Thanks for the feedback, definitely appreciated. Your Skill Saving Talents can basically nullify this damage (including ETech and Ship Ops) next release, so be sure to invest in those.

The danger of ship travel is a major part of the balance of the game, just as it was in ST RPG. It is not something we will be removing. There are tons of ways you can build your crew to mitigate it.

[MintDragon]

DaReaper95  there are a LOT of levers going on in the game. We are still very alpha in many areas in the UI.

That being said, yes, there is a lot of benefit that fresh eyes bring to this phase of the alpha testing, so keep challenging! Many of us have been 'working around' issues and early UI, that we often forget the big picture, much less the initial shock of a new player getting a handle on a game of this complexity and depth.

Many of us know that the scrolling log will have the ability to display a lot more detail so we can clearly see 'what happened' in a certain situation; but right now is just displaying certain things that the TBs used as a starting point (and hasn't changed at all yet.) But yes, it's not uncommon to take a health or morale hit and not see anything in the log after the dashboard shows you have crew that need a doctor. (What the heck was that I ran into?)

By launch, we need to have an organized grouping (or wiki) of the basics to make it easier for newbies to learn the basics. Perhaps dedicated threads with links to information that is currently scattered over 6 months of posts on the ST2 forum. I'm planning on putting a nuts to bolts 'Let's Play' series of vids out simply because there is so much depth in the game.

A couple quick pointers:
1. STATUS screen gives you a snapshot of the ship and crew capabilities (and vulnerabilities). You don't want to be below 100% on any of the blue bars, and you will max benefit at 150% From your HUD in the above pics, you are below 100% in gunnery, ship ops, electronics, so more susceptible to things going wrong there (not enough crew or not enough skill level) to handle normal ship duties or deal with emergencies. Of course, on BRUTAL, the tests (and penalties) will be that much more magnified.

2. When your crew levels up, be sure to snag the talents which offer saves (Command Save, Pilot Save, etc...). If you fail a dice roll in one of these areas, the save will kick in. There is a 3 week cooldown, so doubling up on these talents in early game isn't a bad idea. You can see how you are doing in the scrolling log (Passed Test, Failed Test, Test Save), but yes, not all the detail is in the logs.

3. Play around with the GAME SETUP with PRIORITIES. Higher PRIORITY captain will give you a more experienced crew (and a lot more TALENTS to start with), that you should be able to fend yourself better (less failed TEST rolls) early game. Higher PRIORITY ship will give you a bigger budget to get a ship with a larger crew, more armor, weapons... but a lot more mouths to feed (and pay). Personally, I've not had much success with the Juror class ship to start out with, but many others have.  But the Juror isn't a feasible Merchant vessel either, which I normally play. Higher PRIORITY Contacts will give you a better rating with them to start, so you'll get better services and missions initially.

4. Balancing in a lot of areas of the game hasn't been a priority, getting all of the game features installed has been the primary focus. So certain areas of the game are still harder than they will end up being, other areas will become more challenging. So the first 500 turns of the game is a real challenge while you get your crew upgrades and talent spread to your liking, finding some kind of income generator to keep from going broke (Trading is my primary) while you fix, fuel the ship and heal, spice the crew) and gain experience. I started playing on BASIC while figuring out the best setup, strategy and approach (for me) to play for a Merchant captain, and now have a blast at much higher difficulties. When I play as any other type of captain, I have to ratchet the difficulty back down while figure out these things again.

5. Maps. A smaller map with high density will be easier to travel around in; 20 sectors at highest density might be a good starting point. Keep in mind that maps are procedurally generated, so some maps are better than others, depending on your particular game setup and faction. When I make a new map and have a good idea of sectors, I often think that 'this one would be a really awesome map for a Thulun Explorer' or a 'nightmare for a DeValtos Merchant'. Fortunately, maps are now generated from seeds, so you can create the exact same map on different platforms and share with others.  Or start a new game with that map, knowing it should be good for your chosen profession, setup, and faction.

As mentioned before, we'll need a GETTING STARTED pinned folder which has pointers to all the great combined knowledge already on the forums, including Captain Setups, Maps & Seeds, Ship strength and weaknesses, Officers & Job Stacking, etc...

As to your current predicament (game listed above), there are lots of people willing to specifically help you get going and find some success as you tinker. Add to thread or start a new one with your ABCDE setup information and you'll quickly get feedback/advice on whatever issues you run into. (see pic below) 

From the info you have listed above I'd initially recommend a ship that holds more crew (30-40) and A or B priority for your profession.  This will give you a good injection of save talents from the start to keep you from failing so many tests at first while you figure things out (Less health, morale, ship damage).  Also, find an officer that has an upgrade to both job and talent available on turn 1, train them in doctor, then choose doctor save as your talent.

As an example, here is my current setup for a Merchant (the ABCDE setup info), and with that data, I could get some good advice/critique from others on how to be successful playing, or what challenges I might run into. In this case, a low level merchant captain with a big ship has to establish trade routes and take missions at the same time to make it through the critical 500 turn milestone.  But I can pass a lot of early mission tests with such high attributes on the captain, so I focus on ship operation saves with my first few rounds of leveling up with the crew; and can have 5 officers from the start to balance out skill deficiencies. To note, grävling thinks I'm nuts for playing this way.

[bookworm21]

I don't know how other people play the Juror, but I've had good success with one as a Spy/Bounty Hunter combo (on challenging/demanding though)

It gives a huge amount of flexibility to move up to a Paladin though - the Juror really struggles with all and any combat

[fallen]

P.s. we've made improvements to the smaller ships, including the Juror, for the next update.

[DaReaper95]

Sept 16, 2017 14:34:56 GMT -5 fallen said:

Thanks for the feedback, definitely appreciated. Your Skill Saving Talents can basically nullify this damage (including ETech and Ship Ops) next release, so be sure to invest in those.

The danger of ship travel is a major part of the balance of the game, just as it was in ST RPG. It is not something we will be removing. There are tons of ways you can build your crew to mitigate it.

Didn't mean to sound like I was suggesting removing of the dangers of ship travel. I simply felt the frequency of the incidents was noteworthy. Needing to start a new character again because my fresh spawn has moved from planet A to planet B is not fun, it's frustrating, and that's all I was trying to get at.

[fallen]

We're working toward a point where your starting officers will have better Jobs, including Doctor and Command Saves in the mix.

Also, I think fixing Ship Ops / Electroncs save issue is going to have a big effect, those are two very common saves.

[DaReaper95]

Sept 16, 2017 16:05:42 GMT -5 MintDragon said:

DaReaper95  there are a LOT of levers going on in the game. We are still very alpha in many areas in the UI.

That being said, yes, there is a lot of benefit that fresh eyes bring to this phase of the alpha testing, so keep challenging! Many of us have been 'working around' issues and early UI, that we often forget the big picture, much less the initial shock of a new player getting a handle on a game of this complexity and depth.

Many of us know that the scrolling log will have the ability to display a lot more detail so we can clearly see 'what happened' in a certain situation; but right now is just displaying certain things that the TBs used as a starting point (and hasn't changed at all yet.) But yes, it's not uncommon to take a health or morale hit and not see anything in the log after the dashboard shows you have crew that need a doctor. (What the heck was that I ran into?)

By launch, we need to have an organized grouping (or wiki) of the basics to make it easier for newbies to learn the basics. Perhaps dedicated threads with links to information that is currently scattered over 6 months of posts on the ST2 forum. I'm planning on putting a nuts to bolts 'Let's Play' series of vids out simply because there is so much depth in the game.

A couple quick pointers:
1. STATUS screen gives you a snapshot of the ship and crew capabilities (and vulnerabilities). You don't want to be below 100% on any of the blue bars, and you will max benefit at 150% From your HUD in the above pics, you are below 100% in gunnery, ship ops, electronics, so more susceptible to things going wrong there (not enough crew or not enough skill level) to handle normal ship duties or deal with emergencies. Of course, on BRUTAL, the tests (and penalties) will be that much more magnified.

2. When your crew levels up, be sure to snag the talents which offer saves (Command Save, Pilot Save, etc...). If you fail a dice roll in one of these areas, the save will kick in. There is a 3 week cooldown, so doubling up on these talents in early game isn't a bad idea. You can see how you are doing in the scrolling log (Passed Test, Failed Test, Test Save), but yes, not all the detail is in the logs.

3. Play around with the GAME SETUP with PRIORITIES. Higher PRIORITY captain will give you a more experienced crew (and a lot more TALENTS to start with), that you should be able to fend yourself better (less failed TEST rolls) early game. Higher PRIORITY ship will give you a bigger budget to get a ship with a larger crew, more armor, weapons... but a lot more mouths to feed (and pay). Personally, I've not had much success with the Juror class ship to start out with, but many others have.  But the Juror isn't a feasible Merchant vessel either, which I normally play. Higher PRIORITY Contacts will give you a better rating with them to start, so you'll get better services and missions initially.

4. Balancing in a lot of areas of the game hasn't been a priority, getting all of the game features installed has been the primary focus. So certain areas of the game are still harder than they will end up being, other areas will become more challenging. So the first 500 turns of the game is a real challenge while you get your crew upgrades and talent spread to your liking, finding some kind of income generator to keep from going broke (Trading is my primary) while you fix, fuel the ship and heal, spice the crew) and gain experience. I started playing on BASIC while figuring out the best setup, strategy and approach (for me) to play for a Merchant captain, and now have a blast at much higher difficulties. When I play as any other type of captain, I have to ratchet the difficulty back down while figure out these things again.

5. Maps. A smaller map with high density will be easier to travel around in; 20 sectors at highest density might be a good starting point. Keep in mind that maps are procedurally generated, so some maps are better than others, depending on your particular game setup and faction. When I make a new map and have a good idea of sectors, I often think that 'this one would be a really awesome map for a Thulun Explorer' or a 'nightmare for a DeValtos Merchant'. Fortunately, maps are now generated from seeds, so you can create the exact same map on different platforms and share with others.  Or start a new game with that map, knowing it should be good for your chosen profession, setup, and faction.

As mentioned before, we'll need a GETTING STARTED pinned folder which has pointers to all the great combined knowledge already on the forums, including Captain Setups, Maps & Seeds, Ship strength and weaknesses, Officers & Job Stacking, etc...

As to your current predicament (game listed above), there are lots of people willing to specifically help you get going and find some success as you tinker. Add to thread or start a new one with your ABCDE setup information and you'll quickly get feedback/advice on whatever issues you run into. (see pic below) 

From the info you have listed above I'd initially recommend a ship that holds more crew (30-40) and A or B priority for your profession.  This will give you a good injection of save talents from the start to keep you from failing so many tests at first while you figure things out (Less health, morale, ship damage).  Also, find an officer that has an upgrade to both job and talent available on turn 1, train them in doctor, then choose doctor save as your talent.

As an example, here is my current setup for a Merchant (the ABCDE setup info), and with that data, I could get some good advice/critique from others on how to be successful playing, or what challenges I might run into. In this case, a low level merchant captain with a big ship has to establish trade routes and take missions at the same time to make it through the critical 500 turn milestone.  But I can pass a lot of early mission tests with such high attributes on the captain, so I focus on ship operation saves with my first few rounds of leveling up with the crew; and can have 5 officers from the start to balance out skill deficiencies. To note, grävling thinks I'm nuts for playing this way.

While I do appreciate the concern and attention, I'm not some raw noob who hadn't figured most, if not all, of that out already (though I was unaware that benefits capped out at %150). I have hundred of hours in the old ST (not a lot by comparison to many of the people here, I know). This isn't the "initial shock" phase for me. I'm intentionally picking the Juror because I want a Commander whose primary attributes and skills are high, and I chose to focus on contacts over crew and ship because if I can get to a breakout point early game and get up to a Paladin, I'll be in very good shape. It's intentionally set up to be a challenge and be that "plucky crew of misfits packed together in a shit vessel against the world" feeling. When I play ST or STF I'm more than happy to go through 3 or 4 save files in a day dying and re rolling just to try and get to a breakthrough. So I'm not opposed to the difficulty or the challenge. If I was, I'd simply be playing on a lower difficulty than Brutal. My concern comes in when I feel that the majority of my games, even when I get to the point of having a full crew, don't get ended by being torped by a pirate while I'm flying in a limping vessel or by a bad patrol that damages components and leaves me unable to fully repair. My runs are getting ended by $10,000 repair and healing bills that are accrued in a short flight from one side of a quadrant to another. I've had a captain die with no combat rolls taking place before he even made a single hyperwarp jump.

As I've said, because it feels like this thread is getting tense and I'm not looking for a standoff, it's just my opinion on a frustrating mechanic right now. It should definitely be helped by talent saves working properly, as if I have 6 crew dogs, 2 of them have a save talent and I'm still getting blasted, it is indeed frustrating. I'm aware we're in alpha. I've stated that I'm aware the Juror is a low priority right now and that flying in one is signing up for bad juju.