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Post by throwback on Jul 8, 2018 2:51:25 GMT -5
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1435032553I was unable to escape this ship 4x in a row. 20 speed vs 12, my level 10 vs level 6. Plenty of piloting skill (not sure exact numbers). You can see from the log I am rolling higher on every escape attempt and they are rolling higher on every range change attempt. The enemy ship didn't use any chasing talents at all. It's a strange state of affairs when the buff to *escape* doesn't do anything to prevent a range change, and said range change can prevent my escape.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 8, 2018 7:41:17 GMT -5
Hmm, that does seem weird. Definitely a mechanic I wasn't aware of.
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Post by fallen on Jul 8, 2018 11:15:22 GMT -5
Certainly a string of bad luck. Perhaps hit the enemy with some Talents that will reduce their ability to pursue?
We may need to update the UI's response in this situation. If both ships successfully change range in different directions, the result is that they stay at the same range (5 ... -1 and then +1 = 5). Minor rules changed for update next -- when attempting to escape, your escape bonus dice will now be used in the resistance against the enemy's movement.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 8, 2018 11:23:23 GMT -5
Ah, neat rules change! Maybe consider only doing that for range 5 escapes? (Just a thought. I haven't thought it through much.)
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 8, 2018 12:03:52 GMT -5
Certainly a string of bad luck. Perhaps hit the enemy with some Talents that will reduce their ability to pursue? We may need to update the UI's response in this situation. If both ships successfully change range in different directions, the result is that they stay at the same range (5 ... -1 and then +1 = 5). Minor rules changed for update next -- when attempting to escape, your escape bonus dice will now be used in the resistance against the enemy's movement. We will discuss. I disagree strongly with this. |
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Post by throwback on Jul 8, 2018 16:34:29 GMT -5
If a buff to escape doesn't do anything to prevent range change nullifying my escape, escape talents will definitely be less of a must pick and range change buffs will go up in priority - by how much, I couldn't say. Escape talents will only be good in situations where the enemy is not trying to close with me (low aggression I think).
Perhaps that's good, because then there is a use to lowering a ship's aggression level even if it wants to attack you. Or perhaps it's bad, because it makes the escape talents more niche.
I haven't thought about it much, but that's my 2c.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 9, 2018 9:23:08 GMT -5
Ah, but you're looking at it backwards! Also, you might not be remember the rolls correctly, how they all fit together.
Remember, this game's combat rules and AI are completely symmetrical.
I will work on updating the Wiki, which I think would easily dispel your confusion.
i think the answers are in there today, but I will work on making it more clear.
Thanks!!!
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Post by daveal on Jul 9, 2018 10:15:05 GMT -5
Please post back when you have updated. I am interested to read more about this also.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 9, 2018 10:26:26 GMT -5
Ok it is updated. Best analyzed while considering the Talents and Ship Components.
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Post by throwback on Jul 9, 2018 21:45:25 GMT -5
I had a look at the wiki's latest changes and couldn't see it. I also looked at your profile's latest changes and couldn't see anything that might be related. Which page is it under?
I find it interesting that to change range, you add dice (or points? Not sure) from range change talents. To escape, you add points/dice from range change talents AND escape talents. Meaning that range change talents help you do both, but escape talents only ever help you escape.
From a defense perspective, range change talents are clearly more valuable than escape talents, as they prevent the opponent closing AND help you escape. And since both contests useg the same pools, if you can reliably do one you can reliably do the other.
From an offense perspective, it is possibly valuable to take *escape* debuffs, as they tend to be more powerful than range change talents and you probably only care about preventing your prey from escaping.
I guess this does lead to the third step - escape talents can be useful to counteract the offensive escape debuff talents.
I haven't looked at the actual numbers, so I don't know if the system works as described above. I do know that as a merchant, smuggler or spy I will be prioritising range change over escape, at least to begin with (in talent choices and in combat).
Edit note: fixed mixup in language of 'escape' vs 'range change' in asterisks above
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Post by fallen on Jul 9, 2018 21:48:51 GMT -5
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 10, 2018 10:21:39 GMT -5
We will keep working to improve. Definitely important to start the analysis by looking at the Talents.
The Talents here are what take this from a non-specific abstract to a concrete discussion about a specific mechanic.
And then balanced changes are a lot easier to implement, into the data and balance information we've been collecting for the last year.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 10, 2018 10:21:40 GMT -5
Yes, range change is better than escape, when available. That's why I always prefer Sharp Steering to other "escape" talents. Bolt might be an exception there. I recommended Sharp Steering to be nerfed slightly more than it ended up getting nerfed back when they made some changes with these talents for this reason.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 10, 2018 10:26:05 GMT -5
Yes, range change is better than escape, when available. That's why I always prefer Sharp Steering to other "escape" talents. Bolt might be an exception there. I recommended Sharp Steering to be nerfed slightly more than it ended up getting nerfed back when they made some changes with these talents for this reason. That is an interesting/surprising recommendation. I am not certain that this recommendation fully considers the necessary value of Sharp Steering to the player on medium to high difficulty early in the game. It is a Pilot Talent, level 1 and pretty darn powerful ... for a while. Very, very much on purpose. I haven't modeled the numbers, but I suspect that any Talent nerf there will have a direct, net negative, player fun impact. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 10, 2018 10:27:29 GMT -5
Our goal is game balance ... and player fun.
Sometimes, for the game to be balanced you'll see different abilities and features that aren't necessarily 1::1 with each other.
Mechanically, often game balance comes from sub-element imbalance. In a system where are things are equal, all the things are the same.
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