Real Pilgrams

[tellub]

www.danielnpaul.com/TheRealThanksgiving.html

This link depicts much (but not all) of the atrocities that happened at the reql thanksgiving. I will distance my self from the wording on one detail though. I dont care for the wording "the white man" just as I dislike hearing anyone catagorize any race or color.

That being said a little thought is needed when observing and learning about history. The first thing to know is that often times winners of conquests or wars write the history books so often they are lies laced with fairy tales written by the more aggressive person in conflict.

Another important thing to note is that people dont just pick up and leave their homes unless something is wrong. I dont dispute religous oppression occured. What I do dispute is that was the primary reason the pilgrams (and many early "explorers") chose to leave thier homes.

These early explorers and settlers were often hardened criminals. This would be much like the political refugees allowed to come to the US by Fidel Castro. Not all were Criminals but he made sure to send some of the worst of the worst to get hardened criminals out of his hair.

Some of the pilgrams were ruthless criminals and others seeking true religous freedom without persecution but data shows they brought a bloody rampage followed by illnesses of near biblical proportion.

By the end of the first winter 50% of the pilgrams died. During that same winter more than 40% of the local native tribe died from either being murdered by the pilgrams or by the diseases te pilgrams brought. Many of the natives were captured and sold into slavery. That tribe was almost completely irrdicated in only a few years.

[contributor]

Ummmm, where to begin....

Could I suggest reading some actual source material like "Of Plymouth Plantation" by Nathaniel Bradford himself.

You'll find the picture is infinitely more complicated than that suggested by the article you link and that the Pilgrims most certainly did not kill off the Indian population and that the plague actually arrived before the pilgrims.

The correction for bad history is not more bad history.

[tellub]

we can agree to disgree but the pilgrms were wy over glorified and I challange you to debunk my claim as my research from multiple sources has led me to believe the pilgrams killed many and enslaved many that didnt die.

As far as disease goes it is debateable where the deathly illness came from. The data doesnt even prove what disease was responsibe but wat is known is te settlers who came before the pilgrams or the pilgrams are very likely the cause of the illness (or illnesses) that caused so many to die. This would of course not be something I would fault them for because I consider this just a matter of bringing illness to a population with no antibodies to fend it off.

Illness aside there were atrocities caused by the pilgrams that were documented such as enslaving natives and massacres that were cause of many thanksgiving feasts. George Washington is responsible for eliminating the redundant holidays before Lincoln made it an official holiday. Also records for slaves were oddly percise because they considered slaves valuable property.

[contributor]

If you haven't read any source material, then that is enough to debunk to your research.

[HateSolstice]

Never mind the fact that the native tribes were cut-throats and warmongers. They spent a lot of time killing each other over strips of land like it was the Gaza Strip. The Native Americans of the day were not how they are portrayed nowadays on tv.

Modern historians and apologists want everyone to think that every hate crime, atrocity, genocidal conflict, and instance of slavery is all "the white man's" fault. Everyone seems to enjoy glossing over the horrible truth that most non-white societies and cultures are/were just as brutal and capable of despicable acts to their own kind, if not more so. I couple point out countless events throughout history, but it's hardly necessary.

[Deleted]

I know better than to rise to the troll bait...

[tellub]

I have actually researched this quite well and find your condecending remarks rude. Disagreeing politelyeven if strongly is better lurker. I will however write a research paper on this siting all of my sources since you seem to think I am fabricating this.

Hatesolstice I dont by into claims of colors of people or races of people causeing conflict, crimes or murder. I feel over generalizations like that tend to be unfair and dangerous.

The point of the original post was only to raise awareness that thanksgiving (or rather the original) was not the over glamourized portrayal that we are taught in grade school. The invasion by the early settlers to land already occupied would by todays standards would constitute war.

Oh and I have yet to verify this claim but my mom says Nathaniel Bradford is one of our ancestors. I will try to verify or debunk that claim and I will read the recomendation you gave lurker.

[fallen]

Thanks all, keep it friendly.

[contributor]

Sorry if I sounded rude and condescending. It's indisputable that the Native Americans suffered greatly due to the arrival of the Europeans in the "New" World. It's just that critiques of the perceived official history need to be based on good research and should work to portray the different groups that came to America correctly. Saying things that are inaccurate and malicious about people, though they may be long dead, is also rude, among other things.

The Pilgrims may be a high profile target, because of the way Thanksgiving has developed, but if you read what they say about themselves, I think you'll see they were really among the best groups that came and did work hard to have peaceful relationships with the Native Americans. At times they were provoked and you can't blame them for misunderstanding that the Native Americans were only going to kill a few of them in war and not wipe them out completely.

It's true that all history and accounts are biased by who is writing them, but that doesn't mean we can just throw out contemporary accounts completely. Without historical documents there's nothing to stop me from arguing that the Pilgrims were blue and rode elephants, and if enough people start repeating that online others are probably going to join in and believe it to be the case.

Contact between cultures is always difficult, especially if it involves one group from a technologically more advanced society settling in a less technologically advanced society's area. I would venture to say that in such cases there are never any completely innocent parties. Tension often escalates, not because either side are genocidal maniacs, but because of significant misunderstandings between them. There is a lot we could learn, from the accounts of people like the Pilgrims, about such situations and how to avoid them in the future. By trying to demonize them we might just miss out learning from what they did well AND where they fell short.

[fallen]

For a reference about contact between cultures, see Star Traders aliens

[contributor]

We all know how well that's working out.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2013 13:07:36 GMT -5 contributor said:

We all know how well that's working out.

Peachy Keen, Jellybean...

[slayernz]

"I still feel locking her up in a trunk is politically unsound"
"Well I feel sorry for the elephant"

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2013 16:34:47 GMT -5 slayernz said:

"I still feel locking her up in a trunk is politically unsound"
"Well I feel sorry for the elephant"

You're lucky I have decent google-fu. How obscure can you be? LOL

[slayernz]

Best 80's song ever ... kindasorta.