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Post by contributor on Mar 23, 2014 7:29:21 GMT -5
Normally, when I play I try to complete everything. Do ever level, explore every corner of it, even if I don't need to to complete a quest. I'm starting to think though that there may be disadvantages to that, especially tied to gear. Seemingly there are advantages, because you level up sooner and can upgrade your skills and talents. The thing is though that the enemies are leveling up just as fast or faster than you. So in terms of difficulty there is a negligible advantage to leveling (there is some because the more you specialize the more powerful you become).
But one thing that is static across levels is gear. Gear does not improve based on your level, but based on which region you are in. So if you're playing completionist and leveling as far as you can you're also pushing enemies up, but weapons are not coming up with you. So if you go into the Underforge at level 17 or 21 you still have the same gear and depending on difficulty you're enemies could be between level 17 or 25. If the gear is designed for an average level 20 monster you're getting significantly ahead or behind. So from a gear standpoint you actually could be much more deadly at lower levels.
Thoughts?
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Post by Crimson on Mar 23, 2014 13:24:00 GMT -5
This is very true. The problem with monster levels being tied to player level is this allows for a player getting much further in the game than is normally possible. Ie. Bethesda games can be completed at level 1. I much prefer the opposite where you level up to an area and get to where the area becomes easy so you can progress further.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2014 13:46:03 GMT -5
This is sorta missing the point. The fact is, monster levels and player levels are only secondarily correlated, they're not directly "tied" as Crimson said. In terms of difficulty, the maximum advantage is found in leveling and game routing to match leveling. In a purely linear (and ultimately, incorrect) analysis gear is static across levels, however in an analysis that considers the non-linear game graph and the nature of the monster->player level correlations to region, the system's nature becomes more clear. Unfortunately, I can see how it is easy to become this confused: However, I am absolutely confident that as players are able to play Episode 2 and explore the various routes through it we will find many clever concepts and more clarity of understanding. Regarding the statement above, this is clearly part of Heroes of Steel RPG, and I'm glad I have the chance to point out that it isn't the 'opposite' at all but precisely the same. Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion to Episode 2!
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2014 13:50:46 GMT -5
So if you're playing completionist and leveling as far as you can you're also pushing enemies up, but weapons are not coming up with you. So if you go into the Underforge at level 17 or 21 you still have the same gear and depending on difficulty you're enemies could be between level 17 or 25. Don't go to the Underforge first.
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Post by Crimson on Mar 23, 2014 14:05:34 GMT -5
Cory TreseThat's good to hear. I will try to give hos a try again. Start fresh and see how it goes. And also keep an open mind. Will try to at least get to the first town. Crimson
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2014 16:37:06 GMT -5
Cory TreseThat's good to hear. I will try to give hos a try again. Start fresh and see how it goes. And also keep an open mind. Will try to at least get to the first town. Crimson Certainly -- if you do not like the Red Hill experience, it is very unlikely you'll enjoy the rest of the game, no matter how non-linear, dynamically progressive or carefully balanced it is. At it's core, it is a tactics fighter with tree based character building. If that's not your thing, you'll probably not enjoy HoS.
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Post by slayernz on Mar 23, 2014 17:04:56 GMT -5
I am a completionist and for the story-based games like this, I tend to play Normal difficulty until I've gone through a couple of times. As such, I haven't actually even made it to E2 yet! I've just taken my second party through the Temple of the 13 (see, I play slow) In terms of equipment, I've picked up some good gear and found that more often than not, it exceeds what is available in the shops. For Oskahold, I did like that there was a new batch of gear available after you cleared the North Vault and the like. I almost would have preferred, even at E1's stage having some gear that you can't use until you hit a certain level (or minimum str/dex/int, etc). Alternatively, I would have liked (a) some magic gear sold at the shops for a hefty price, (b) some random gear that changes each "day" where day is defined as the period between camp fires/rests. Having some random gear generation means that you want to go check back with the armorer on a regular basis to see if there isn't some new morsel of goodness. All in all though the party is still successful thus far with the gear that they have, so if nothing changes, it won't be detrimental to my playing the game
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2014 18:51:01 GMT -5
Q: Will I find the best gear from in game drops? A: Yes
Q: Will there be any way to "grind" the gear in shops, to get them to act as drops? A: No
Q: Are there ways to update the content of the shops through my character's actions? A: Yes
Q: Are there hidden shops, in out of the way places of the game where rare magical gear is sold? A: Yes
Q: Is Episode 1 just warm-up for Episode 2? A: Yes
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Post by slayernz on Mar 23, 2014 21:44:28 GMT -5
Thanks ... I know that seeing Episode 1 and extrapolating out to the rest of the game is a risky thing to do and knowing that (a) there are hidden shops, (b) there is still the best gear to find in the field, and (c) there are many many more things to explore in the game (in Episode 2 and beyond) keeps me a very keen player.
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Post by contributor on Mar 24, 2014 4:49:51 GMT -5
slayernz, I didn't notice this so much in episode 1, but I do notice it in episode 2. Around level 21 my the baddies seem to progress fast than I do and I'm not matching damage to keep up with them. There was one team in E1 where Selen was able to buy some new blades at the Advanced Siege Camp and made a huge difference for her. So I know gear does make a difference. So more thoughts and questions 1) after almost 2 full play throughs of E2A1 I have yet to find a weapon that is better than something I can buy in a store. One play through was with hammers and bows and the other with blades. Maybe I'm just getting really bad rolls. 2) Cory Trese do enemy levels scale up (or down) based on the gear we have equipped as well? In that case my original hypothesis is probably off target, however, if that is not the case I think there is still merit to it. My team and therefore the enemies are going up in levels, but the gear is pegged at a fixed level. The higher I level up in a given zone the less effective my gear is. But maybe there is gear in chests I'm not finding that would make a difference.
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Post by fallen on Mar 24, 2014 10:11:49 GMT -5
contributor - 1) I am very, very surprised that you'd say that is the case. Look closer at the weapons? We need to vary their names, so that it is clearer. 2) Enemy level is related to difficulty, the region you are in, and your level. Gear is not taken int account. As I pushed in E1, if you are finding the difficulty rising in the dungeon and feel like you can't keep up - seek better weaponry or armor, or consider re-juggling your gear.
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Post by algesan on Mar 24, 2014 10:18:39 GMT -5
slayernz, I didn't notice this so much in episode 1, but I do notice it in episode 2. Around level 21 my the baddies seem to progress fast than I do and I'm not matching damage to keep up with them. There was one team in E1 where Selen was able to buy some new blades at the Advanced Siege Camp and made a huge difference for her. So I know gear does make a difference. So more thoughts and questions 1) after almost 2 full play throughs of E2A1 I have yet to find a weapon that is better than something I can buy in a store. One play through was with hammers and bows and the other with blades. Maybe I'm just getting really bad rolls. 2) Cory Trese do enemy levels scale up (or down) based on the gear we have equipped as well? In that case my original hypothesis is probably off target, however, if that is not the case I think there is still merit to it. My team and therefore the enemies are going up in levels, but the gear is pegged at a fixed level. The higher I level up in a given zone the less effective my gear is. But maybe there is gear in chests I'm not finding that would make a difference. 1) Luck of the draw there, it took E2 for me to see a better spear than store spears and right now the best sword I have is store bought for the second party. fallen - that can happen even when you get drops. I at one time had a hammer, sword & spear that stomped the crap out of anything in a store in E1A1...except they were in different parties that didn't need the specific item. I had similar issues going through the rest of E1, spear Vraes got sword & hammer drops and sword Vraes got hammer & spear drops, although I don't think I saw one that made Lukai's sword obsolete until the new store opened up in the Conquered Keep. 2) Yep, I've noticed the variable power level issues also. There was another bobble on the way through RH at the end of E1. IMO, it isn't so much the gear as the interactions of the combat system that we don't have a full handle on yet. I'd say more, but the linear nature of HoS prevents checking these kind of things out reliably. It's like at some points you need (for example) Dodge X, Parry Y and Armor Z or you are going to get pounded (or not be able to hit back reliably)...and if that point on the NPC power curve (which we know is independent of the PC curve), like at 18th level, you don't get a Talent point to buy a level for that extra XYZ you need and the drops haven't given you the extra XYZ...then it is just painful and you spend more time creeping forward & long walking after fights. I've seen it happen that way in multiple RPG systems and there isn't much you can do if it isn't live. Heh, I'm hiding Selen now like she doesn't have any defenses and her Dodge is 30 with full party buffs (+ some Evasion). Nothing has changed, no level ups, except she has some better gear bits than she ended E1 with....but stuff is still hitting her way too easy compared to her performance in E1, even in melee combat where she gets Parry and melee defence along with Dodge to defend against attacks. I do have to note that the reverse is also true, there are levels where my groups have professionally exterminated mobs with lower risk, which I assume are the points where the party's combat ability exceeds that of the NPCs for that level.
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Outsider
Exemplar
It is always better to hit, than to miss harder.
Posts: 301
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Post by Outsider on Mar 24, 2014 11:26:47 GMT -5
contributor - 1) I am very, very surprised that you'd say that is the case. Look closer at the weapons? We need to vary their names, so that it is clearer. 2) Enemy level is related to difficulty, the region you are in, and your level. Gear is not taken int account. As I pushed in E1, if you are finding the difficulty rising in the dungeon and feel like you can't keep up - seek better weaponry or armor, or consider re-juggling your gear. I've time and again found better versions of standard weapons from shops in drops, but with greatly improved stats. Anything from more accuracy to avoidance to much larger than normal damage ranges. I haven't bought a weapon or armor since E1A1 after clearing the North Vault. As fallen said, don't judge a piece by it's name.
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Outsider
Exemplar
It is always better to hit, than to miss harder.
Posts: 301
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Post by Outsider on Mar 24, 2014 11:36:27 GMT -5
slayernz, I didn't notice this so much in episode 1, but I do notice it in episode 2. Around level 21 my the baddies seem to progress fast than I do and I'm not matching damage to keep up with them. There was one team in E1 where Selen was able to buy some new blades at the Advanced Siege Camp and made a huge difference for her. So I know gear does make a difference. So more thoughts and questions 1) after almost 2 full play throughs of E2A1 I have yet to find a weapon that is better than something I can buy in a store. One play through was with hammers and bows and the other with blades. Maybe I'm just getting really bad rolls. 2) Cory Trese do enemy levels scale up (or down) based on the gear we have equipped as well? In that case my original hypothesis is probably off target, however, if that is not the case I think there is still merit to it. My team and therefore the enemies are going up in levels, but the gear is pegged at a fixed level. The higher I level up in a given zone the less effective my gear is. But maybe there is gear in chests I'm not finding that would make a difference. Heh, I'm hiding Selen now like she doesn't have any defenses and her Dodge is 30 with full party buffs (+ some Evasion). Nothing has changed, no level ups, except she has some better gear bits than she ended E1 with....but stuff is still hitting her way too easy compared to her performance in E1, even in melee combat where she gets Parry and melee defence along with Dodge to defend against attacks. I do have to note that the reverse is also true, there are levels where my groups have professionally exterminated mobs with lower risk, which I assume are the points where the party's combat ability exceeds that of the NPCs for that level. You have to be careful about who you have Selen stand toe to toe with. You learn over time what mobs hit hardest and most consistently. Don't have her tank those mobs, remember, she's an off-tank and not meant to take the hard hitters. Also I would say if your stealth is adequate you should have the drop 9+ times out of 10 and therefore decide who she's on, protect her. If she's getting hit too much by average mobs than I'd say invest in avoidance, she has enough built in offense. For instance, I use two gear slots for defense/rogue stats (evasion/security/stealth) and two for offense (hit/crit and damage) and had fabulous results with her.
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Post by contributor on Mar 24, 2014 11:45:36 GMT -5
contributor - 1) I am very, very surprised that you'd say that is the case. Look closer at the weapons? We need to vary their names, so that it is clearer. 2) Enemy level is related to difficulty, the region you are in, and your level. Gear is not taken int account. As I pushed in E1, if you are finding the difficulty rising in the dungeon and feel like you can't keep up - seek better weaponry or armor, or consider re-juggling your gear. 1) My first group played through most of the Underforge before you increased the occurrence of weapons. I did find one sword in the Temple of the Aracnid that had slightly better stats than what I had bought in Riven Field. My second group has found more stuff, but unfortunately they are a hammer and bow group and I have never found a hammer in a drop yet in E2. Selen has found a better bow than what she bought in Braeyshalum, and yes I'm aware that weapons with the same name have different stats. In the second group it's really hammer-Vraes who is having the hardest time. I'm able to pile lots of extra damage gear on Selen and with crits, she's pretty effective. 2) Without finding better weapons there's only so much you can do by juggling gear. Vraes is finding it harder to hit, so I have put more accuracy gear on him and less damage gear.
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