Miss or Hit : Phalanx Shield vs Stone Skin (quick revisit)

[vdx]

How does Stone Shield  compare to Phalanx Shield? Quick discussion follows:

At level 5,  Phalanx Shield costs 3 AP / 23 SP and provides: +7 Parry, +8 Armor and 30% auto-block of ranged attacks.
At level 5, Stone Skin  costs 3 AP / 30 SP and provides: +150 HP, +16 Armor., +8 Earth Resist.

In EP 1, an Extra 150 HP is pretty nifty but by EP 2, that amount of life can be lost in one or two hits, negating most of Stone Skin's usefulness against mobs, especially ranged opponents. In contrast, the Parry and auto block benefits from Phalanx Shield serve well against melee and ranged enemies throughout EP 2.

In addition, Stone Skill's extra HP isn't automatic. The skill raises max HP but requires the use of a healing skill or potion to obtain. Assuming Level 5 Stone Skin, a Level 4 Myshana's Tears, 24 SP providing 170 HP, is required to gain the full benefit of Stone Skin, making Stone Skin SP expensive for Vras as well as the party healer. One could avoid the healing SP through the use of a life potion, which is often advisable. However, it just so happens that a Level 5 Warder's Shield, costs about the same as a Level 4 Myshanan's Tears, see below:

At level 5, Warder's Shield costs 2 AP / 30 SP and provides: +3 Parry, +5 Dodge. NOTE: 3x3 so full party gets benefit.

Therefore, for comparable party SP use, one could either have a Vras that takes one or two extra hits, or a Vras that has a total +10 Parry, +5 Dodge with an 30% auto-block with extra parry and dodge for the rest of the party. Note: since dodge is used for both melee and ranged, that combo gives Vras a +15 in melee defense.
 
It seems to me that Phalanx Shield out preforms Stone Skin in the last half of EP1 and throughout EP2. That doesn't mean Stone Skin should be discarded. High parry and high dodge only provides a high chance of avoiding damage. Sooner or later the dice will roll against you and having the extra HP from Stone Skin can be a life saver--esp against an one-on-one heavy hitter such as the Big V or the EP 1  Side Quest Troll.

Stone Skin +might+ be better balanced with Phalanx Shield if the extra HP were included in the casting, giving Stone Skin aspects of a healing spell as well as a defensive spell, but that idea needs further discussion and vetting by the powers that be, i.e. the developers.

[Cory Trese]

Phalanx Shield requires an entire slot in your gear.

[vdx]

Oct 15, 2014 16:38:34 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Phalanx Shield requires an entire slot in your gear.

Good point! That's a part I left out.

Phalanx Shield requires a shield which prohibits the use of a 2-H weapons or dual wielding.

I've found that by keeping a good 2-H weapon in stock, it's not too much trouble to switch between fights I want extra damage from the 2-H weapon and fights I want the defensive abilities from a shield and Phalanx Shield. However, for parties that like 2-H / Dual Wield, Stone Skin is the way to go.

[tenbsmith]

vdx, nice analysis. Both abilities have their advantages, but I have a personal preference for Phalanx.

I have really enjoyed building fortress Vraes using the combination of Phalanx Shield and Warder's Shield. My current group--Travelers II--is currently level 9 with Phalanx 5 and Warder's 4; Vraes rarely get's hit and when he does it tends to be for low damage. I've got to finish the Warm Cavern and then it's on to the Vermin Lair. I'm curious to see how Vreas does against the--bump, bump, bonnnnnn!--Deathkin.

[vdx]

I've found using a combination of Phalanx and Warder's Shield coupled with good ole' Level 1 Ethereal Anguish made the Deathkin more of a speed bump. Of course, I use a melee focused Cleric as a flank guard with a Firebolt and Aimed Shot focused Wizard and Thief. The Deathkin tends to get hit pretty hard before he can close ranks. Sometimes I let him live an extra round just to ensure a low XP hero gets the killing blow bonus.

Another advantage to a Phalanx using Vras is his higher chance of dodging an attack allows Ether Anguish to be kept at Level 1 as there's a reduce need to prevent attacks he's likely (but not guaranteed) to doge or block. In turn, keeping EA at level 1 lets it get sprinkled everywhere due to it's mere 10 SP cost. In addition, the less Vras gets hit, the less healing he requires, which frees up AP and SP from the Cleric to either attack or cast other buffs, such as Warder's Shield or Ethereal Anguish. Over all, I find it a nice loop.

However, looking at the horizon, I have a feeling that 200 extra HP from Level 7 Stone Skin might be very, very useful in EP3 or EP4....

Oh, the bane of balance means there's no choice that's not without second guessing.

[tenbsmith]

vdx, I am using very similar tactics. The major difference I see is that Tamilin is focusing on Deadly Intuition rather then Aimed Shot. A potential difference is Kjartan has invested in Burning Blades and uses Choking Ash regularly.

Regarding the HP, Vraes is splitting points between Stength and Constitution. My original idea was to invest in only those two attributes for the foreseeable future. Recently, I've been tempted by Inteligence. The other heroes still have half their SP when Vraes runs out. Probably best to stay with the original vision and let him drink potions.

[plunk]

They're balanced from a Nightmare Ironman point of view anyway.

SP costs are easily mitigated, especially if all the healer is going to do is heal, which obviously means the Healer is going to prioritize SP gear. Given how a single death for any character in this game is an automatic game over, having the Healer prioritize healing over everything else is a reasonable decision.

Parry and Dodge should be invested in heavily. Meaning you build your party (or at least the tank) with a lot of Parry and Dodge in mind or you just don't. You can substitute -Enemy Accuracy, but again the numbers have to be big. Because a Vraes with all his points invested in DEX, carrying a shield, and even Dodge accessories will somehow still end up with enemies having near 100% accuracy. So a partial investment is basically just telling the game to flip a coin to determine if it can show you a game over screen or not during huge fights. Or force the player to resort to tactics that practically negate the point of Dodge/Parry.

Stone Skin is balanced because it's a sure thing. You get more max HP, this HP's effect is more predictable no matter how little or how much you invest in getting more HP. You can build around the assumption that enemies will roll max damage with HP. Phalanx Shield doesn't give you that assurance without putting everything into it and more sources of Dodge/Parry. If you don't focus on Dodge/Parry You can't reasonably assume every other hit will miss because in the case that it doesn't then game over.

[vdx]

Initially, I played with a Stone Skin Vras. There's a lot to be said about the talent but the draw back I saw was, as you indirectly point out, it requires the healer to be designated as a healer. I prefer my Cleric as a flank guard that can get some hits in when not tending to Vras' frequent wounds. Vras getting hit less means she's has more opportunities to be a light melee fighter.

-IF-,and this is a big if that's been discussed before, 1-handed staves / wands are introduced, I might return to a Stone Skin Vras as allowing a healing focused cleric to equip a shield and a magic bonus 1-h staff/wand would give her some defensive stats to be a light melee guard (body buffer between heavy hitters and my range attackers). She wouldn't do much, if any, damage but she role would be to block hits rather than deal damage.

In my ideal fantasy world, the Cleric gets a 1-H wand that's dexterity based. That way she gets the dodge and weapon bonus for upping the weapon associated attribute. She could block melee hits, dodge a little, and have the ability to cast healing spells/buss every turn, allowing Vras to be healed every turn which would make Stone Skin much more appealing again.

Different playing styles, different party builds, different preferences.

[Cory Trese]

Cleric uses Hammers, 1H and a Shield. She's balanced around that system and I don't foresee that changing to include a 1-H dexterity based wand.

Different playing styles, different party builds, different preferences.

Personally, when I'm playing 2H Vraes I use Stone Skin and I level it up enough that it doesn't drop on Nightmare, so healing happens once or twice per level, meaning the impact on the Cleric is negligible.

[plunk]

So in short, you think Stone Skin is unbalanced because you don't want the healer to be a full time healer? Seriously?

A skill is poorly balanced if no viable party build is ever going to need it or an alternative is always going to be better (again in viable parties) or if it makes the entire game too easy. Not because a player doesn't want to do something. That every skill be balanced for every viable party build and play style is ludicrous. As long as one viable party makes good use of a skill and it isn't a suboptimal choice given the entire setup then it's fine.

Also I don't see how Kyera as a healer means she can't be a backup tank. The whole point of giving her SP gear is so shd won't need INT. Leaving all those points for CON. She doesn't even need SP gear as that just increases the number of battles she does not have to constantly use potions without camping.

[fallen]

Lol, plunk he just said "... but the draw back I saw was ... "

[plunk]

I'm not talking about Stone Skin having a drawback or not, I'm talking about how balance is supposed to work.

Does a skill having a drawback automatically mean it's unbalanced? No. The drawback can make the skill unbalanced, but that has to be proven. The drawback of Stone Skin is that someone has to heal Vraes, but as I've said making the healer a full time healer turns that concern into a pointless one. So now the drawback is the healer is now a full time healer. Does that make Stone Skin unbalanced? No, because as I've said a full time healer in a game where one death is game over isn't a bad idea.

His only defense for Stone Skin being unbalanced pretty much boils down to him not wanting to deal with Stone Skin's drawback. That's a personal choice not a real argument about how Stone Skin is unbalanced or not. If he somehow proves that a full time healer makes the game reasonably unwinnable sure, Stone Skin is now unbalanced. But no, his argument is that he doesn't want to make a full time healer (and a poor one at that because a Kyera focused on healing can still tank in a pinch)

[fallen]

plunk - didn't see the word "balanced" or "unbalanced" in the post once

Everyone has a play style, and sees different advantages and disadvantages in different talents. That's a good thing.

[plunk]

Because it doesn't need to be. The original argument is that Stone Skin is unbalanced (worse) than Phalanx Shield

Stone Skin +might+ be better balanced with Phalanx Shield if the extra HP were included in the casting, giving Stone Skin aspects of a healing spell as well as a defensive spell, but that idea needs further discussion and vetting by the powers that be, i.e. the developers.

So unless he somehow changed his position somewhere, every post he makes in this thread carries the implication that Stone Skin is unbalanced because Phalanx Shield exists.

[fallen]

Guess we're having a lively argument about different posts