Reset Talent points

[contributor]

I'm going to join the "no" camp as well. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. There is something about having to live with decisions made that adds a real edge to the game. You can't just respec your team to make up for a bad decision. You have to live with it, work around it, or ultimately revise your team design strategies and start over. If I could respec a team however I wanted it would really change the way I think about team design and might even make me more sloppy because I can just fix it later.

It sounds like it's getting worked on though and that's ok with me. I'll be interested to see the implementation of it and what costs it brings. I'm thinking that it has to at least knock you down the leader boards, or maybe take your in-game money.

[ntsheep]

contributor, having to live with your decisions is a valid point. That's why I used the Diablo 2 example. In that game, it can be done only once for completing the quest. You have to really want to respec badly if you use it. Some may see it as a crutch, others see it as a chance to keep going without needing to start all over just because of one mistake you may or may not have made. It may not have been wrong how you leveled your character the first few episodes but because of the new changes to the game at later ones, those tactics won't work. They were right before, but know you need something else. I too consider myself a "glutton for punishment" I only play Nightmare and always restart when I die. I can agree with points on both sides, but for me, at least one respec may be nice. If it doesn't get added, that's not a problem. I like this game no matter what.

[John Robinson]

I share contributor's point of view and joined the "no" camp.  Ok so I would have to be crazy to turn up a chance to correct a Talent error, or give up a great opportunity to save a huge amount of time from having to run more groups just to correct an error.  There is something valuable in the characters, like people, having made their life altering choices with no second chances.  There have been plenty of painful "Oh crap what have I done!" moments.  At the end of Episode 3, I thought my group was a complete failure that turned out not to be the case.  The wonderful Threads posted for groups like "Withering" or Board challenges like the "All Ranged" just seem a little more valid without do-overs.  I do feel very exposed to terrible decisions until Episode 4 is completed which supports the respec. To be fair I could probably have run twice the number of experimental groups in the time savings a respec can provide but wonder if something would be lost in trading speed for living with the Chosen 4.

I am torn between the advantages of both, will enjoy either way it goes, but for now have to take the painful stand for no respec.

[En1gma]

I feel like at this point, really the only thing missing for me is the respec... Having made as many groups as I have, I can honestly say that my main, number one reason for all these restarts is because of misspent points. I'm almost up to a hundred groups now since my first, this is days worth of game time that I can't get back at the moment because there isn't a way to fix a simple mistake.

Make groups in Ironman competition major-ly penalized for respecs and let us do it more than one time only, I would love to get those hours back.

[Zhivago]

I think the first respec should have no penalty. After that you can decide how to penalize (ascending score and/or gold, for example). Thanks.

[fallen]

Dec 14, 2014 18:01:09 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Make groups in Ironman competition major-ly penalized for respecs and let us do it more than one time only, I would love to get those hours back.

In terms of ladders, the respec will be like a very long campsite. It will reduce your score, so those groups that run perfectly will end up as score leaders.

[samopop]

I already voted yes, but after reading other people's responses I have switched to the "no" camp. If the goal of respec is to fix misspent talent points, then I feel like that is not aligned with the spirit of the game. If you royally screw up your talent points, then you probably can not continue and will just have to restart anyway. If there are only a few misspent talent points, you can likely continue as far as you want (just with additional challenge). However, for those that want things to be more forgiving to a few misspent talent points there are already existing remedies: choosing an easier difficulty.

My concern about having a respec is the possibility it would open up for exploiting it by creating a team optimized for the first section of the game first, respecing, and then having a totally different party optimized for the later portions of the game. HoS is extremely well balanced, so there probably aren't huge exploits sitting around. However, there must be *some* that will be found if something as massive as respec is introduced. A lot of the fun in HoS is deciding which talents to add when so that you are constantly able to survive while doing good damage to the enemies. Adding respec would cheapen that aspect of the game a bit.

There is an issue distinct from (but related to) respec which is that I think it would be really fun to be able to try alternative high level builds without having to go through 30+ hours of E1. This is not what respec is meant to address. mrsarfa suggested having the option to start the game at the first waystation. I would like to see an expansion of that idea: an option to start the game at say, E2 (maybe E3 and E4 when it is available). Any game that did not start at the beginning could not be used for the leaderboards. Also, presumably you could not start a game at an episode you had not already gotten to. There would be some open questions about what equipment to give such a party since an integral part of HoS is filling any holes in your builds with the proper equipment. However, if it is at all doable, then it would open up the ability to try out high level abilities. (getting back to how this is related to respec) As it currently stands, you can't "try out" high level abilities because you can not afford to misspend a talent point at high levels. I will most probably never know what a Juggernaut Vraes plays like . . . but I would like to!

[Cory Trese]

I think that there is a distinct concern, however, regarding what you're saying.

Taken to the logical conclusion, you build Tamilin around Aimed Shot and Darknight through Episode 2, then respect to all Ranged Onslaught and Critical Buff.

Juggernaut and Ferocity Vraes are both really great.

[John Robinson]

samopop En1gma

Very good analysis, well spoken +1k to both you guys. 

During Character levels 1 through 14 the Attb, Skill and Talent points are awarded quickly compared to the number of experience points needed to reach level 34 (my ending in EP3).
By level 17 our groups have a solid foundation into a development path that makes them unique.  I think level 17 is a good place to ask "have I built my house on a bed of sand?".
It also allows enough time to really evaluate the mutual support each member gives to the group so that one mistake doesn't cause us to "throw the Baby out with the bath water".
Many times I'm surprised by group dynamics regardless of my compulsive detailed plans.  On the other hand En1gma having created an absolutely stunning number of groups, commands my well deserved praise!  For him a "skip-ahead" to reach higher character levels more quickly is certainly warranted.  

So what level would be a good point of no return?  In other words perhaps a one time respec upon reaching a leveling campsite after a certain character level has been reached? 
When can we say yes they follow Ryethin but I created and committed too them for bad or worse.  The waters are muddy can you help me out with a few more ideas?
Thanks

 

[samopop]

Cory Trese - That is a good example for exploiting a respec. Here is another: build a party around physical damage, choking ash, and armor stripping for the first 2 episodes and then switch over to a holy strickening, elemental damage focused party for the later episodes.

John Robinson - I think the sweet spot for point of no return would be more like level 20 - 25 after you have had the opportunity to put some points into level 18+ talents.

[CdrPlatypus]

I am going to say yes, but the re-specs should be limited to once at the end of each episode and come with a heavy score penalty. It should be something extra extra special. Not something you can just do whenever IMHO. Maybe have a god or a wandering mystic character offer to help you re-learn at the end of each episode.

[bobc]

I think that the re-spec is a great idea and should be available to the player to use whenever they want as often as they want.  Rather than limiting the re-spec itself, would it be possible to make the penalty more complex then an increased camping penalty, so that it can reflect the scope of the re-spec?

Please consider....

When the player opts to re-spec the game stores character Stats and then compares them to the re-aligned Stats when the re-spec is complete and saved.  The player can then be deducted leaderboard points for any Stat points re-assigned.

For a simplistic example, changing a melee Kyera to a magic attack Kyera could mean moving 9 points from Smiting Blow to Banishment plus the Invocation needed for accuracy and targets, say a total of 18 points.  At 5 million leaderboard points per Stat point thats 90 million.

For players who want to experience the full range of talents and combinations available, they could potentially re-spec for every dungeon, trying out many of the great builds discussed in these threads and experimenting with their own variations without having to run multiple groups.  The cost?  Leaderboard extinction.

For the dedicated Ironman who desperately needs to recover 1 or 2 misplaced points in Crushing Blow that should have gone in to Savage Sweep, thats only 10 million points, easily recoverable in the long game.

[CdrPlatypus]

I really like bobc 's Idea for determining the penalty. That is brilliant. It wouldn't murder someone who just needed to move a point caused by a miss click. I'm not personally keen on unlimited respects, but I can see that appealing to some players.

[Deleted]

I'm in for the "no's"

I can see arguments for "yes" and I recognize that some form of respec is in the long-term cards and that's ok. My personal take is that you can correct quite a bit with equipment especially once you hit Ep3. Talent points are a huge deal but they aren't the be all and end all of this game and I think respec will unintentionally de-emphasizes parts of the game that are really cool (equipment, discovering new tactics with older talents, etc.)

[hollowpoints]

I like how bobc described a respec. I agree with him that it should be available as often as one wants, and that the penalty in leaderboard score could reflect how many points you changed. Thanks fallen Cory Trese for taking the time to work on these types of requests.