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Post by grävling on Mar 15, 2015 9:39:15 GMT -5
I don't see us losing alertness one band at a time on the new meter. Instead, it looks like we just swap bewteen graphics that mean 'alert', 'rested', 'tired' and 'dog-tired'. There is no way to tell 'I have just become dog-tired' vs 'I've been dog-tired for quite some time now'. If this is the way things are supposed to work -- and enhancements where you lose one band at a time are not planned for the future -- I for one would infinitely prefer it if we just showed the word 'dog-tired' (or whatever) on the screen at this part. There is also a problem, in that there is no way to tell the difference between 'dog tired' and 'exhausted' using the new meter. But in the combat screen it is all you really care about -- do I need to pop a crammer because I am entering this fight exhausted or not? In combat there is no good way to check your exhaustion, so that is where I need it most. If the meter was replaced with the appropriate words, there would also be plenty of space left over for 'kill' or 'capture' whenever those options for missions became appropriate.  |
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 10:03:15 GMT -5
grävling - the meter does not update constantly, but it is not locked into the 7 bands of Exhaustion. It ticks down like a real meter. I will keep working on its update schedule to improve how much it updates. If you'd like to get the word description, tap on the meter.
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mataeus
Templar
[ Elite & Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
From summer sands, to armageddons reach.
Posts: 820 
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Post by mataeus on Mar 15, 2015 11:33:35 GMT -5
I don't see us losing alertness one band at a time on the new meter. Instead, it looks like we just swap bewteen graphics that mean 'alert', 'rested', 'tired' and 'dog-tired'. There is no way to tell 'I have just become dog-tired' vs 'I've been dog-tired for quite some time now'. If this is the way things are supposed to work -- and enhancements where you lose one band at a time are not planned for the future -- I for one would infinitely prefer it if we just showed the word 'dog-tired' (or whatever) on the screen at this part. There is also a problem, in that there is no way to tell the difference between 'dog tired' and 'exhausted' using the new meter. But in the combat screen it is all you really care about -- do I need to pop a crammer because I am entering this fight exhausted or not? In combat there is no good way to check your exhaustion, so that is where I need it most. If the meter was replaced with the appropriate words, there would also be plenty of space left over for 'kill' or 'capture' whenever those options for missions became appropriate. I have to say... ^THIS^ I really like the new meter, but grävling's proposal sounds perfect. |
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Post by grävling on Mar 15, 2015 12:23:19 GMT -5
grävling - the meter does not update constantly, but it is not locked into the 7 bands of Exhaustion. It ticks down like a real meter. I will keep working on its update schedule to improve how much it updates. If you'd like to get the word description, tap on the meter. It's not that I like the word description, it is just that unless you are updating the meter a whole lot more often than now, there is no advantage to having the meter vs a word description. |
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Post by Officer Genious on Mar 15, 2015 13:50:59 GMT -5
grävling's rigbt-- the bar meter, while a co thought, doesn't really tell me anything. I lost 2 bars-- did my status change significantly? Typically, no-- so why bother losing two of 20+ bars when its not particularly significant and hard to read at a glance? I think you may want to consider cutting down the bars to maybe 5 or 6 depending on how many different sleep statuses there are, some kind of a slider bar (with a positive rested side and a negative tired side) or just phrases instead (as gravling suggested).
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 14:56:08 GMT -5
Officer Genious - from the feedback I've gotten, people want to know "Am I exhausted?" and "When will I be exhausted?" Switching to words like "Dog Tired" are actually pretty arbitrary. They answer the first question accurately ("no, not yet") and the second vaguely ("Soon-ish?"). The meter's value is in giving very clear answers to both. Reverting to the description text would be a sad undoing of work already done and also sacrificing functionality. I hope you'll come around to the new upgrade. We'll keep working on improving. grävling - the intention is that you are Exhausted when the meter is empty. It seems like the integer math used here is not facilitating a clear break between "very close to Exhausted" and "actually Exhausted" so I will fix that for next.
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Post by grävling on Mar 15, 2015 16:35:35 GMT -5
Officer Genious - from the feedback I've gotten, people want to know "Am I exhausted?" and "When will I be exhausted?" Switching to words like "Dog Tired" are actually pretty arbitrary. They answer the first question accurately ("no, not yet") and the second vaguely ("Soon-ish?"). The meter's value is in giving very clear answers to both. Reverting to the description text would be a sad undoing of work already done and also sacrificing functionality. I hope you'll come around to the new upgrade. We'll keep working on improving. grävling - you are arrive at Exhausted when the meter is empty. I have a meter that is empty at dog tired. seeing that the meter is empty does not mean that I am exhausted. I disagree that the meter gives you a clear answer to the question 'When will I get exhausted?'. What I want to know, most often, is 'can I afford to take a taxi to this destination, or will I arrive exhausted if I leave right now', and right now I have had the exact same numbers of bars on the meter lead to both results. From my point of view there is no more information given in the meter than is given in the words, which makes the words a better choice. Words don't look as if they ought to be giving you any extra information. There are 5 states, and you move from one to another. The meter looks as if it ought to be giving you more information, but it doesn't because it is not a real meter. There are just 5 icons, which mislead you because each of them look as if they could be part of a real hypothetical meter you might create one day. Right now exhaustion is not a continuous quantity, but rather 5 states. A meter is a fine way to display a continuous quantity, but it really does not work to display discrete states, unless, of course the number of discrete states are so large that they begin to resemble a continuous quantity. And so the result you have is 'you picked the wrong UI representation' which is why it is irritating. I am fine with 'you cannot find out the answer to the level of precision you want (can I get in a taxi now, or not?)' but only if the UI representation used also does not admit that much precision. What you have now, just teases. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 16:37:28 GMT -5
grävling - that's very strange. There are 21 bars in the meter, and they tick down here, each individually based on the amount of turns you have left before you hit Exhausted. I agree that it needs to update more. Maybe you're seeing device issues that I am not? There are not 5 icons anywhere I don't understand the "5 states" thing at all. The text is in five states, but I'd hate to revert a meter with 21 states down to 5 again, big loss imho. I edited the last post, I do agree -- due to the math used, there is a point where you can be very low on the meter but not yet Exhausted, and you have 0 bars left. That is slotted to fix in the next release.
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Post by grävling on Mar 15, 2015 17:08:40 GMT -5
Part of the problem is the scale of the meter ... I really don't care if my exhaustion is 'alert' 'rested' or 'tired'. There is nothing I
need to plan that has to be done all in one day, so that knowing how rested I am is significant to me in any way. But once I am dog-tired,
and once I am 'running on crammers' then I care very much when I will fall over. And that information I do not get out of the meter. RIght now
I was 'dog tired' and the meter showed me 0 green bands whatsoever. But I still delivered 5 single packages/messages/people out of the Church of Saint Patrick, Southie before I became exhausted. Which means the thing to do is just keep on trying, until you fall over with exhaustion.
But that, of course, you could always do. If the meter doesn't make a difference in your gameplay, then it's probably a waste.
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Post by grävling on Mar 15, 2015 17:10:58 GMT -5
grävling - that's very strange. There are 21 bars in the meter, and they tick down here, each individually based on the amount of turns you have left before you hit Exhausted. I agree that it needs to update more. Maybe you're seeing device issues that I am not? There are not 5 icons anywhere I don't understand the "5 states" thing at all. The text is in five states, but I'd hate to revert a meter with 21 states down to 5 again, big loss imho. I edited the last post, I do agree -- due to the math used, there is a point where you can be very low on the meter but not yet Exhausted, and you have 0 bars left. That is slotted to fix in the next release. Okay, I will see if the next release makes a difference. You say the meter has 21 states?! I am most definitely not seeing 21. I think I am seeing 5, which is where the 5 states thing is coming from. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 17:21:34 GMT -5
The meter is built from 0 to 21 small green graphics, so yes -- the granularity of the meter is 21 states. It won't go higher, but it isn't 5 for sure.
We'll keep improving.
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Post by Officer Genious on Mar 15, 2015 17:38:15 GMT -5
I think grävling means that the five states that actually make a difference so far as veterans understand it-- (Stimmed Up, Sharp and Alert, Rested, Tired and Dog-Tired) aren't clearly represented on the green bar. The other tired states (like Fully Rested and Dead-on-Your-Feet) are either redundant or ones you may see for maybe a few turned before the longer 5 periods mentioned above, and so seem like 'flavor text'. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 17:52:14 GMT -5
Officer Genious - interesting. When you rest, you get a large number of turns you can stay on your feet before you are Exhausted again. Just as an example, let's say 750. Every game actin takes a certain number of turns. The "five states" are arbitrary measurements down as you approach the "0 turns left = Exhaustion". The Exhaustion meter gives you a representation of your "turns left" with a progress bar that can show up to 21 ticks. I'm amazed this has caused so much confusion lol. We'll keep improving.
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Post by Officer Genious on Mar 15, 2015 18:03:39 GMT -5
Officer Genious - interesting. When you rest, you get a large number of turns you can stay on your feet before you are Exhausted again. Just as an example, let's say 750. Every game actin takes a certain number of turns. The "five states" are arbitrary measurements down as you approach the "0 turns left = Exhaustion". The Exhaustion meter gives you a representation of your "turns left" with a progress bar that can show up to 21 ticks. I'm amazed this has caused so much confusion lol. We'll keep improving. I've kinda ignored it because it shows 0 even when I'm stimmed up (not even on crammers, just stim pax!) and just mildly tired, nevermind dog-tired. It just doesn't tell me anything at a glance that I don't have to dig deeper to know anyway. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 15, 2015 18:08:25 GMT -5
Officer Genious - odd, but everybody plays differently! Can't imagine how having the meter wouldn't help, but there ya go We'll keep improving.
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