matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Feb 20, 2016 19:01:09 GMT -5
I might be laying it on a little thick, difficulty of posting in forums instead of talking face to face. I am not saying you are making a mistake with your group or that you have to build any way, just suggestions on what to do based on what I have done in the past. You can definitely build a successful group with elemental damage even without a curse that lowers resist. Armour and resist work much the same in terms of mitigation, the nice thing about armor shred groups is that a weapons raw damage gives a standing number to already overcoming armor. So +4 damage is all potential damage because the weapons base damage is already beating the armor (presumably). Elemental damage doesn't have that base to work off of so you really need to build it in order for it to be effective (which can be done and is very deadly).
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 19:07:47 GMT -5
My Kyera is going to be a staff wielding caster, majority of attacks she'll make will be Holy Retribution then Re-Spec into Banishment. Yes the +6 Holy doesn't add much if anything currently but I also don't have/haven't gotten any other Gear that would do more for her to this point and it will boost that Holy Retribution when I get it next level. You are correct about how +Holy or +Fire works, especially when it is stacked on top of other Fire or Holy Dmg. Where matrim's example just looked at +6 Holy on a standard mace, the equation is very different if you are already using Holy Retribution, which is dealing solid Holy Damage out of the gate, and you're way past the enemy's Resistance already. Same with stacking +Fire on top of Firebolt. Great post! |
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 20, 2016 19:29:17 GMT -5
I might be laying it on a little thick, difficulty of posting in forums instead of talking face to face. I am not saying you are making a mistake with your group or that you have to build any way, just suggestions on what to do based on what I have done in the past. You can definitely build a successful group with elemental damage even without a curse that lowers resist. Armour and resist work much the same in terms of mitigation, the nice thing about armor shred groups is that a weapons raw damage gives a standing number to already overcoming armor. So +4 damage is all potential damage because the weapons base damage is already beating the armor (presumably). Elemental damage doesn't have that base to work off of so you really need to build it in order for it to be effective (which can be done and is very deadly). Fair enough  Funny how conversation got a bit off my initial OP question. I've got a pretty set plan on what I want to do with Selen, Kjarten and Kyera. They've been a mainstay of all my parties since Selen was first added to game so I'm fairly comfortable making plans on how to level them. Kincaid on the other hand is very new to me and I'm still figuring out what I feel will allow him to best work with the other three and my plans for them. He's got a number of very interesting talents but I want to keep him fairly focused, better to have 2,3, maybe 4 Talents getting points than just a few points scattered across more talents in my experience. Due to planning on Choking Ash, Ethereal Anguish, Pinning Shot and Punishing Blades I think I can skip Flanking Unity for him especially if I decide to boost his Darting Steel or go with Crippling Strikes. At some point I'm going to want an empowered attack with him that can make him more than just a highly mobile shield and cleanup guy. Would prefer that be an attack which has some sort of AoE so Darting Steel, Crippling Strikes or Storm of Steel. Don't see myself investing in more than one of them though and need to figure out when to start doing so. If I go Storm of Steel then I could effectively postpone that decision till after episode 1 while building up Cunning Footwork and Live by the Blade. If I go with either Darting Steel or Crippling Strikes then I should probably start on them sooner to give him the AoE sometime early in episode 2 I'm thinking. While re-spec is available would prefer not to use it unless I decide it's absolutely necessary. |
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matrim
Star Hero
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Posts: 708
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Post by matrim on Feb 20, 2016 19:36:17 GMT -5
Any of those would be good. My personal suggestion would be darting steel as the curse that comes with it is just so good, especially on nightmare. Also it really opens up Kincaid as it can be used at 1-3 range and often you need the tank to be in a certain square at the end of the round in order to gain the most aggro. That said I have used storm of steel to great effect and it is nice because it can AE with only a single point of investment, allowing you to focus on some other skills with the left over points.
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 19:36:33 GMT -5
xdesperado - good planning! I like the look of the group build out. En1gma was giving some good advice on the topic earlier, which is worth reading. I would check to see how much range vs. melee you have. If you have enough range, and potential range AoE, then you might think of wanting a melee fighter and therefore shoot for Storm of Steel. As it stands, it sounds not neither Kjartan (duh) and Kyera won't be spending time in melee, so this might be a question of where Selen will spend her time -- firing arrows or stabbing with steel?
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 19:36:51 GMT -5
Any of those would be good. My personal suggestion would be darting steel as the curse that comes with it is just so good, especially on nightmare. Also it really opens up Kincaid as it can be used at 1-3 range and often you need the tank to be in a certain square at the end of the round in order to gain the most aggro. That said I have used storm of steel to great effect and it is nice because it can AE with only a single point of investment, allowing you to focus on some other skills with the left over points. Great points, +1. |
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 20, 2016 19:49:15 GMT -5
xdesperado - good planning! I like the look of the group build out. En1gma was giving some good advice on the topic earlier, which is worth reading. I would check to see how much range vs. melee you have. If you have enough range, and potential range AoE, then you might think of wanting a melee fighter and therefore shoot for Storm of Steel. As it stands, it sounds not neither Kjartan (duh) and Kyera won't be spending time in melee, so this might be a question of where Selen will spend her time -- firing arrows or stabbing with steel? Have gone over En1gma post repeatedly and love his breakdown. Selen is going to be a switch hitter, using Pinning shot 5 to remove AP and take out ranged threats and Dance of Shadows to get in close with Punishing Blades. Kjarten and Kyera will eventually be dropping ranged AoE bombs so looking like much as I like Darting Steel I may want to just focus Kincaid on Cunning Footwork and Live by the Blade for now and then get some Storm of Steel. |
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phaze
Exemplar
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Post by phaze on Feb 20, 2016 21:16:32 GMT -5
Just responding quick to the BB pile on. I would say it is unfair to people looking for assessment of numbers.
Over the game, you have a choice of talent points and CF or CA maxes out out or you level up talents over a game. BB is adding to the arsenal. To say that it does not add damage or that it is worthless does not do justice to the game numbers.
Old BB added 33 Fire dam max or 17 ave dam. More than right to overcome reg. resistance. Factor in frequent crit hits and BB is definitely doing damage. True, without -res it is less impressive, but CA maxes out. Period. Kjartan can add additional damage on top of CA. This is invaluable.
Telling players to max this or that detracts from the games complexity of numbers. Kjartan doesn't need MS 6. MS 6 is useful for the shape. MS 2 is also great and does a great job. Support kjartan is useful in a variety of ways and builds.
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Post by En1gma on Feb 20, 2016 22:38:18 GMT -5
I never said that BB was useless It has its place in the equations, and I use it in a few of my groups. (I much prefer TB as it synergizes(?) exremely well with ES and Strickening/ToS, but this is irrelevant here...) All I am saying is that when you weigh the option of adding another point into CA or starting/adding into BB, the returns will be less with BB *in this case*. It adds relatively small amounts of elemental by itself, and since he is running Kyera and not Fyona, he would be better off not bothering with overcoming res and just focusing on CA, which will improve everyone's damage far more than a modicum of Crit and Fire Dam. This is for Ironman, and you need every advantage you can get to make it into E2, let alone cut it against the Orcin or Cultists /shudders. My remarks about MS 6 were assuming he would run him as a full support wizard. If he wants to start in on FS, then he wouldn't even need MS, and could just dump everything into CA 10 and FS. BB rocks, but is it as important as getting KJ to the upper levels of CA? I don't know. As to xdesperado, CS is an amazing talent at level 6. Absolutely cripples enemy groups, and when paired with MS can strip away enemy damage by the dozens. This being said, it DOES take 6 points to get there. I took a similar group, but brought Vincent instead of KJ for LS 10, though the dynamics are largely the same with Kyera/Kincaid/Selen. I ended up dropping my points in SoS (full party respec at 34 or so I think...)and a few from SP so he could have CS 6, and it was the best decision I could have made for him. The added AP/Damage curse and the fact that it is FAR FAR cheaper than SoS made it so Kyera could spend her time attacking and EAing instead of Sacrificing 3-5 times a round just to feed Kincaid. Until then, SoS is more than viable, but at some point he didn't need the extra damage it dealt. <--- Weirdest thing I've ever said, but he had SO MUCH damage gear that the ~30 damage from SOS in exchange for the sheer cost of the talent wasn't worth it for my group. (Consider Sacrifice if you go with SoS, and higher levels of Pinning Shot if you use it, you can lose the points in a later respec if you wind up with an overabundance of SP pots)Something to keep in mind for the long(long) term, but make sure you use your respecs wisely. |
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 23:02:15 GMT -5
Let's discount the Level 10's.
Choking Ash goes up by -2 Armor every level. This guarantees +2 Dmg on every hit. It is hard to knock as one of the best Curses in the game. That said, you have to spend 3 of Kjartan's AP to apply it to every given monster. If you use him as an Ash Wizard and spend most of his AP knocking down Armor, you can consistently get this -2 Armor on every attack every hero makes.
On the other than, Burning Blades goes up by +3 Dmg every level. This is on average +1.5 Fire Dmg and at maximum +3 Fire Dmg. This is tempered by enemy Resistance, which is far lower throughout the game than armor. If you decide to go this route, I always stand by the "focus" rule -- so you will get your +1.5 to +3 Dmg if you bring enough +Fire gear to the table to be able to overcome low enemy Resistances. That said, with all the new enchanted loot in the game, this is far easier than it has ever been before. Kicker, Burning Blades is a 0 AP cast which is based on Conjuring and therefore is very rarely going to run out in combat and require a recast.
In the end, I think you could argue about these Talents all day, but when you look at the 2 AP near-constant cost of the +2 Dmg of Choking Ash (not to mention SP, need to maneuver to get near a target ... how many times have I not been able to cast my Choking Ash in my latest nightmare run because I had to move 2 squares to get in range grrrr) vs. the 0 AP cost of Burning Blades +1.5 to +3 Fire Dmg ...
I love that we've created a game that can have such spirited debates!
All this said, I always use Choking Ash with Kjartan. I do love to stack on Burning Blades, esp since it is basically a 0 AP bonus.
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Post by En1gma on Feb 20, 2016 23:18:21 GMT -5
Ahhhhh, but how many blows would miss were it not for the Parry/Dodge effects of Ash? BB isn't like TB where it increases accuracy...
I live for talking strategy, so please nobody take me too seriously here. I too love how complex this game is, and going on 3 years now, we still have things to experiment with and debate over.
TB for life
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 20, 2016 23:22:35 GMT -5
Ahhhhh, but how many blows would miss were it not for the Parry/Dodge effects of Ash? BB isn't like TB where it increases accuracy... I live for talking strategy, so please nobody take me too seriously here. I too love how complex this game is, and going on 3 years now, we still have things to experiment with and debate over. TB for life That's why you use darting steel and pinning shot/ToS. Edit and/or strickening/reckoning, EA |
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 23:27:31 GMT -5
Great conversation - makes me hungry for Legends of Steel!
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 20, 2016 23:29:49 GMT -5
En1gma will take your thoughts on Storm of Steel vs Crippling Strikes under advisement and give it serious thought. Think I'll wait till after Baron fight at end of episode 1 to decide on an empowered attack. Till then I'll build Cunning Footwork and Live by the Blade. Currently entire party is level 9. Have cleared the 3 halls and getting ready to go after the Nordhall Troll. Kincaid Darting Steel 1 Lunge 1 Sure Parry 4 Cunning Footwork 3 Next point goes into Live by the Blade. He's got the Kallassian Overcoat found on way to Oskahold (16 Armor) Infantry Dagger (1AP, 2acc, 1parry, 9-18 dmg, 2% crit, +3% SP Drain) Flat Daggers (1AP, 3acc, 2parry 9-14 dmg 3rng) Thinking of switching the infantry Dagger for a Vrotta Dagger (2AP, 3acc, 3parry, 18-36 dmg, +4% SP Drain) but not sure the extra dmg and 1% SP Drain will make up for the 4 extra attacks and 2% crit reduction. Gear is Footfall Cloak (+4 Armor, +2 Unholy resist, +2% SP Drain) Zenith Charm (+10 Max SP, +4% SP Drain) Singed Arm Guard (+4 Fire dmg, +4 Fire Resist) Kjarten Choking Ash 5 Firebolt 1 Burning Blades 2 Pureflame Shield 1 Next point goes into Burning Blades (probably  ) Still using starting staff (need to find another soon) Reinforced Robes (10 Armor) Serpent's Tongue (+4 Fire Dmg, +2 Fire Resist, +2 Ice Resist) Lost Ring (+20 Max HP, +4 Dmg) Wisewalk Boots (+2 Elemental Dmg all, +2 Fire Resist) Kyera Ethereal Anguish 4 Holy Retribution 1 Smiting Blow 1 Purifying Breeze 2 Myshana's Tears 1 Next point goes into Holy Retribution Rimwood Staff (2AP, 2acc, 4 Parry, 13-22 Dmg, +40 Max SP, +2 Dodge) Quilted Brigadine (13 Armor) Druidic Cloak (+20 Max SP) Amulet of the Faithful (+6 Holy Dmg) Wisewalk Boots (+2 Elemental dmg all, +2 Fire resist) Selen Pinning Shot 5 Frenzied Blows 1 Quicksilver Defense 1 Sly Look 1 Precision Pick 1 Masterful Disarm 1 Next train goes into Dance of Shadows Broad Dagger (1AP, 2 Acc, 1parry, 13-22 Dmg) Ashwood Bow (2AP, 5 Acc, 15-33 Dmg, 6 Rng) Thief's Garb (8 Armor, +2 Evasion, +3 Stealth) Serpent's Tongue (+4 Fire Dmg, +2 Fire Resist, +2 Ice Resist) Singed Arm Guard (+4 Fire Dmg, +4 Fire Resist) Firebrand Ring (+6 Fire Dmg, +16 Fire Resist)
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Post by fallen on Feb 20, 2016 23:32:14 GMT -5
One more note, that early in the game -- check the monsters. It is very easy to over Curse in that level range. If you have CA 5 and the monsters have 0 Armor and you are hitting well... taking it to CA 6 is still 0 Armor, hitting well.
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