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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 8:40:43 GMT -5
By the way, that^ is me. Figured I may as well register, heh. Welcome to the forum and interesting analysis of Vraes's and Kincaid's level 18+ Talents. Thanks for kicking off the entire discussion  |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 10:15:12 GMT -5
Jugg vs SoS at level ten with their supporting attack talents. Other points made about it in this thread are still valid too, this is just some missed parts...
Talents required for max dmg Vraes on multiple targets:
Are targets likely to die in a hit of jugg? Yes.
BR, Jugg. (Possibly NM if acc is needed)
Are targets likely to die in a hit from jugg? No.
BR, Jugg, (maybe NM) and other empowered. (That other empowered -can- be from other party members btw)
Kincaid for max dmg with SoS, talents required:
CF, FB, FU and SoS. (Good thing CF adds acc and defense and FU is a acc and party buff, otherwise Vraes clearly wins in talent point use for self buff to dmg).
Other things to keep in mind.
1. BoS may be greater than LbtB to reach and kill targets.
2. If targets are scattered then SoS may not be effective at multiple targets per hit, while the extra ap+mp from Jugg and BoS would be.
3. (Minor) You'll always be standing in one of the squares of the nine block for SoS (or sundering) so 8 not 9 is max targets per hit.
4. SoS, alough Kincaid's most deadly attack per hit, is not necessarily his best AoE and certainly not usually his most sp efficient at high levels...
Seriously, the extra mp from Jugg should be taken into full account to make the scattered cripples your party makes for Vraes to reap unto death with Jugg. By itself without party help Jugg is truly unimpressive, but with a good party build to ready the ruffians for Jugg, it works quite well, just as often as SoS, maybe more so. With a party of 4 having to be killing blow only for returns is no worse a penalty than having a block shape limited AoE when many enemies like to stay too scattered to be included with that area. I keep defending something I donk think is perfectly well balanced mind you - it is good, not great, same for SoS. One thing we all agree on is thank goodness it's not steel and shadow. :-p
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 10:28:49 GMT -5
wascalwywabbit - great counter-analysis of the Talents! Great balanced arguments to both sides. I wonder what a average max targets for SoS is? It certainly isn't 8 ... they'd have to make the formation and leave a perfect space for you. Maybe 3? In my Nightmare Ironman game, I respec Fyona to have Reckoning and I am finding at best hitting 2 targets, often only 1.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 16:02:01 GMT -5
wascalwywabbit - great counter-analysis of the Talents! Great balanced arguments to both sides. I wonder what a average max targets for SoS is? It certainly isn't 8 ... they'd have to make the formation and leave a perfect space for you. Maybe 3? In my Nightmare Ironman game, I respec Fyona to have Reckoning and I am finding at best hitting 2 targets, often only 1. That's right, but that would bring up immolation... :-p Yes 2-3 is common, 7 is the max I actually hit I think with SoS - why I often prefer DS 9+ since its update. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 16:17:44 GMT -5
wascalwywabbit - you could hit 8 at absolute maximum. Immolation is going to fair far better at hitting a higher number of average, as the center of the AoE is the targeted creature. Kincaid or Fyona have it worse because they need to be able to step into odd formations to get higher AoE target count.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 16:48:09 GMT -5
I usually didn't get too much more into immolation (enemies) than SoS or sundering. Certainly never while still at cross levels. Immolation has range and 3ap cost, SoS and Sundering can have mp+ boosts to reach instead, but their real advantage is using 1-2 ap attacks and still doing decent damage. The real comparisons are immolation and FS, to a lesser degree energy storm/LS. In aggregate FS will always do more damage for fewer ap than immolation. FS 5 (range 8, 52sp 4ap and huge flower AoE) to immolation 10 (6 range 64sp, 3ap 9block), similar damage per target and use, but FS is much more likely to hit more, possibly more than 2 castings of immolation. The only advantage for immolation over FS is tagging the same small clustered group of enemies twice in a turn, and energy storm is better at that thanks to -res cursing, so is LS thanks to 2ap per cast. Kjartan's FS is definitely the range and AoE king for a single talent. Two talents Vincen's charged speed +LS is imo, RO and Banishment are good too... In either case Jugg is great at cleaning the survivors out.  |
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Post by En1gma on Mar 18, 2016 17:29:26 GMT -5
If you want a 9-block focused group, go
Kincaid with DS, Footwork, and SoS
Vincent with ES, FF, and TB
Fyona with Stricken, Reckoning, and ZS/CD
Tamilin with DI, ToS, and RO
This just sets them up and knocks them down. Strickening+ToS+ES is your damage setup, while SoS, DS, Reckoning, and RO/ToS just slaughter.
Yeah, I have no life, wannafightaboutit?
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 18:33:45 GMT -5
If you want a 9-block focused group, go Kincaid with DS, Footwork, and SoS Vincent with ES, FF, and TB Fyona with Stricken, Reckoning, and ZS/CD Tamilin with DI, ToS, and RO This just sets them up and knocks them down. Strickening+ToS+ES is your damage setup, while SoS, DS, Reckoning, and RO/ToS just slaughter. Yeah, I have no life, wannafightaboutit? Do you need ff in that setup? Wouldn't EotS be more fitting since you got ToS and Reckoning? ES is energy storm right? Elemental Sundering works too also ES... :-p |
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Post by En1gma on Mar 18, 2016 18:46:36 GMT -5
I would still want it to take care of long range mob clusters. Reckoning is one-range, and ToS is up to 4 range. That lets you strip off tons at close distances, but I would be worried about shamans and ugly cursers that hang back and cast away at you. FF shuts all that down. Plus, it's a 9-block...
ES is Energy Storm in this case, though Sundering could do well if you wanted a melee Vinnie.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 19:04:05 GMT -5
I get what you're saying, but ToS + BN 3mp and 2 MP boots are pretty good getting to the back to curse too and then Vincent Just nukes everything else back there with EotS and ES while Fyona brings their front line to a reckoning or Strickens for Kincaid to melt them if I can kill same turn. -ap curse the heavies with reckoning and maybe -res and ap curse with ToS if they're 4ap baddies, and anything else ToS can affect, but straight up kill the peons, then stricken the heavies, es and knock them down.  |
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Post by En1gma on Mar 18, 2016 19:09:03 GMT -5
Fully get your point of view, amigo. I'm of the vein that I almost always have a 6 range AP curse. I've been bogged down so many times where I have no way to get to the archers and shamans, and have lost groups because of it.
Nowadays I am able to plan ahead and range out my enemies, but just in case, I like to have an ace up my sleeve.
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Post by Kanly on Mar 18, 2016 21:31:49 GMT -5
Fully get your point of view, amigo. I'm of the vein that I almost always have a 6 range AP curse. I've been bogged down so many times where I have no way to get to the archers and shamans, and have lost groups because of it. Nowadays I am able to plan ahead and range out my enemies, but just in case, I like to have an ace up my sleeve. I agree with this. A max range ap curse is the most important part of a NMI run. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 21:51:53 GMT -5
Fully get your point of view, amigo. I'm of the vein that I almost always have a 6 range AP curse. I've been bogged down so many times where I have no way to get to the archers and shamans, and have lost groups because of it. Nowadays I am able to plan ahead and range out my enemies, but just in case, I like to have an ace up my sleeve. I agree with this. A max range ap curse is the most important part of a NMI run. Especially anywhere near that cursed Underforge. Shudder - can't wait to take my Nightmare team there |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 18, 2016 22:25:51 GMT -5
Fully get your point of view, amigo. I'm of the vein that I almost always have a 6 range AP curse. I've been bogged down so many times where I have no way to get to the archers and shamans, and have lost groups because of it. Nowadays I am able to plan ahead and range out my enemies, but just in case, I like to have an ace up my sleeve. I agree with this. A max range ap curse is the most important part of a NMI run. My favorite team build of KKFT has no such thing available better than ToS. CdrPlatypus 's analysis of ToS for the OG nmi was insufficient damage to guarantee curse, he never mentioned insufficient range (iirc). I try to make up for that by having FU and Strickening since I'm not limiting my group to the OG only. ps If it proves to be a problem I do have the option to acc (ss, ms) and dmg (ms) curse at range with that team. Whether that proves to be a favorite strategy for me in the long run is yet to be seen - I don't wanna split tp and ap that much if I can avoid it. |
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 18, 2016 22:46:53 GMT -5
I agree with this. A max range ap curse is the most important part of a NMI run. My favorite team build of KKFT has no such thing available better than ToS. CdrPlatypus 's analysis of ToS for the OG nmi was insufficient damage to guarantee curse, he never mentioned insufficient range. I try to make up for that by having FU and Strickening since I'm not limiting my group to the OG only. Thinking CA10 and some ranks in SS will help you keep ToS effective at dealing damage. |
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