High difficulty specialist help please?

[capthawk]

At Nightmare and Ironman I simply cannot succeed with RQing specialists early.
For examples:
Baby Neptune, Paladin, Berserker: good luck getting past Airlock Chambers.

Baby any specialist: good luck in Extermination Protocol.

Meanwhile, where do you dare sacrifice on standard classes? It's alot of points for top tier weapons to go around!

My experience has been if I don't follow the in game progression for unlocking specialist classes at least fairly closely, I get murdered at Extermination if nothing else. By in game progression I mean when we are given the Hydra and Paladin, or as Soldiers need better weapon extras I start on Neptune.
Sadly, I don't get a worthwhile Beserk until Narvidians that way, and he's so noob I can only sneak him out.

Again I'm just asking for Nightmare and Ironman, considering the heat restrictions and enemy AI/lvl.

Side note I find funny at least: I think of Willpower vs. heat like I do Water Fuel vs. Morale; my heat meter is my fuel tank in reverse. When it's full, it's mutiny(heat lock)!

[fallen]

capthawk - interesting challenge. I really don't think you should worry about following the in-game progress if you don't want to. The influence of those classes, and their appearance in the game as "forced units" is so ridiculously minor, I'd not worry about it.

However, spreading yourself too thin on Nightmare is going to get you into trouble. Don't try to do Paladin, Berserk, Neptune at the same time. You do need to pick a specialist and then augment with core troops. If you get that working, then consider another. Nightmare is far harder and definitely requires you to use the core successfully.

In the Hyrda vs. Neptune challenge, I 100% ignored Hydras and Paladins and worked Neptunes + Soldiers + Scouts. On Nightmare. I think I had the second highest score, and a huge crew (4?) of highly leveled, deadly Neptunes by the end. Except on forced levels, I never took out a Hydra or a Paladin and spent 0 RP in their trees. It would be a big mistake to over play the influence of the few appearances of specialists on your squad, and probably muddles your Nightmare strategy.

[capthawk]

fallen - Thanks as always for the prompt reply.
I think my question was muddled, lol, because I agree with your advice.

I don't take it as a "forced unit". Following the story to unlock specialists I can beat Nightmare, by that I mean focusing on their respective trees as they "naturally" need requisitioned.

My unstated goal would be to have (at least) one of every class above basic level(relative to Captain), on first play through.
That's what I can't seem to do at Nightmare and Ironman.

It may well be my tactics, I subscribe to run fast, hit hard, get out whenever possible. In the early game (up to Extermination), that rules out Neptune for me. Paladin simply doesn't hit hard enough yet, if balanced with the healing skills I prize. Berserk also seems puny and vulnerable at low level.

Hydra does fine, and is usually the class that gets some levels before Extermination. However, I find with only six knights (5 minus Nyra) on that beast of a level I'm much better off with Captain, Engineer, Scout, top two Soldiers who have leveled up and geared up.

Moving on, I'll continue to use Hydra, adding on Paladin next, who gets in enough work to get ahead of the level curve. Neptune continues to develop alongside gear needs for other classes, usually sees a late deployment for the first time at Moklumnue Drop, and will be able to level ahead of the curve moving on.
Berserk is the one who really suffers. Focusing deployment and points on the other classes means I don't break him out until close to the end, and he has no chance to catch the curve.

I tried unlocking Berserk in lieu of Neptune, figuring go for Predator Lock instead of Weapon extras, but that did not work out well early game.

I can't imagine beating Extermination (for that matter, Airlock Chambers) with a Neptune squad, not the way I run fast.

So, does it seem like I'm doing what you meant in your response?
What advice, if any, for developing specialist classes earlier than I am?

And especially any tips on getting a decent Berserk on the battlefield earlier?

[fallen]

Aug 9, 2016 9:07:14 GMT -5 capthawk said:

My unstated goal would be to have (at least) one of every class above basic level(relative to Captain), on first play through. That's what I can't seem to do at Nightmare and Ironman.

capthawk - are you talking about one specialist at a time, or all of them in a single run?

Re: Neptunes - can actually make you play faster. They are absolute destroyers in terms of laying out damage, but need to move all their MP and then fire. This means they generate insane heat and will hit their limit pretty quickly. This means you need to beat the level even faster than normal. In my Neptune run, I did not find them to be slow, and you can see from the score sheet, I was beating the turn goals handily every time.

Re: Berserks - protect them while they are young, and focus on Fortitude and Auto-Block. The next update will make them even more fun to play, with some more high level options. But, while they are starting out, they need help -- melee is just too dangerous without high Auto-Block %. Pair them with a Soldier for maximum effect. Focus on Auto-Block Shield, gear, raising a point or two of Focus, and Talents that pump AB. You can easily get to 25% - 36% Auto-Block with a Berserk once they get their first level and get a new Talent point. Do it! You'll find they start to round out quickly. I am currently running a 2-Berserk squad on Ironman, pulling 2 Berserks into every level (first with axe and shield, second with dual axes) and with their help I just topped my previous record on the Ferarai Power Relay.

[capthawk]

fallen - first, I think you let slip at least part of the update. DUAL AXES!?! (salivates).

To your question: I mean bringing each specialistst on Squad during the first run through the entire scenario. Not all at once, but bringing them on as I progress, building what I've unlocked before moving to the next class.

I value all the Classes, which is why ideally I'd have at least one of each beyond basic recruit level.

Re: Neptune- agreed, however, levels like Airlock and Extermination are guaranteed heat lock for me, and I put all my early points to Willpower as it is. Usually shooter classes get 10, melee and Hydra 8 (on Ironman). Soldiers barely avoid heat lock on Extermination as it is.

Re: Berserk- I see what you're saying. My issue has been all the whiffs I get swinging the axe with a baby Berserk. Which would seem to mean I need Strength and Warrior, and better axes?

Maybe it's my attribute allocation? My model is usually willpower and evasion early, then core attack attributes mixed with focus and tactics. I try to include quickness as core attacks gain some points for defense vs. ranged attacks.
Hit points I add with gear, my reasoning being even the lowest hit point gear gives you twelve extra hp, which is roughly two to three points I could put into attacks etc.

Just to be clear I'm not complaining, this strategy got my through Nightmare with only one Knight lost. I suspect if I avoid blunders I can achieve similar results on Ironman.
I just like getting better at the game overall, and being able to vary my squad.
I love TBF, hasn't gotten old at all, and I have run many, many squads. Looking ahead, I'd love to run through Nightmare and eventually Ironman again with a blade focused or Neptune heavy squad.

I know it's hard to give advice without seeing how I play, I've tried to describe when and where I think I fall short.

[fallen]

Aug 9, 2016 10:53:49 GMT -5 capthawk said:

Maybe it's my attribute allocation? My model is usually willpower and evasion early, then core attack attributes mixed with focus and tactics. I try to include quickness as core attacks gain some points for defense vs. ranged attacks.
Hit points I add with gear, my reasoning being even the lowest hit point gear gives you twelve extra hp, which is roughly two to three points I could put into attacks etc.

This is definitely an area I'd suggest adjustment. Key is to see where you are struggling (whiffs) and then adjust. I would not raise Quickness on Ironman ever, not until your key stats (Fortitude, Focus, Strength for a Berserk) are maxed out. Ignore Willpower, you need to win without it honestly. Put all your Skill points into Warrior.

As the difficulty levels go up, the band within which you can find success shrinks. You can find it lots of ways, but you must focus and focus intensely to be successful. Always come back to the "What is going wrong and how do I fix it?"

[capthawk]

fallen - couldn't agree more with the shrinking bandwidth of success. I also agree about approaching obstacles as you suggest, the where am I struggling line.

Ignore... Willpower... Did you mean just for Berserk? Or all classes? Either way, that would seem to bring me back to an earlier struggle on Nightmare/Ironman: heat lock. I found I could ignore Willpower to a large degree early up to Brutal, but not now.

The tip on quickness I will definitely try, for all classes, although it makes me terrified of Lancers and Spitters! Also, this makes me reconsider the value of grenades on my troops, especially low quickness Berserk.

Guess I might as well keep asking. I usually get Evasion to 6 for all classes early, then leave it until much later. Too much?

[En1gma]

Interesting... My focus on almost every single class is Fortitude and Willpower 2:1, and don't worry about Strength until later, if ever...
-- My thoughts on this is that I'm almost always using some sort of buff (Calling Shots) or cursing dodge/parry, so I have found that Standard Dice are enough to see me through... Granted I play on Brutal, but I can't see there being too much of a difference in a single difficulty jump, yet as always I'm likely wrong...

My biggest problem even since the Alpha has been the constant damage dealt by Heat. I have lost too many good Templars due to being broiled alive... I almost always make management of Heat my number one priority for my squads, which leads me to devote my Attribute points to negating its effects. Being mobile and not worrying about cooking myself to death is just as responsible for me staying alive as enemy removal... By outrunning and covering with OW, I'm able to keep mobile and light on my feet. This means no Neptunes for my squads, unless it's a defensive mission or one that allows them to stay put and defend. Their Heat is uncontrollable, and the one thing they possess to remove it makes them almost immobile.

Berserks are especially vulnerable to Heat damage as well (Their attacks and buffs are often costly), and their weapons are rather accurate if you always keep them up to speed. I would not ever work a Berserk without moderate investment in Willpower, as all the auto-block in the world can't keep you from taking a dozen damage per turn from just your Heat.

In terms of getting a viable Berserk on the field early, try running a pair of them. I was having the same issues and found that if I had a pair of them working in tandem, the two could split the incoming damage and deal enough together to take down the enemies threatening them. Alternately, glue one to your Commander, make him Cap's escort-- Same concept as above, but Cap has buffs that will help out, as well as a Plasma Pistol if you take one-- really helps to clear the board to keep incoming attacks at a minimum. Another alternate, pair one with a Soldier (OW shines when used right in front of a melee Templar: OW forces the enemy to rethink their turn, often causing them to just stop in their tracks, which is perfect for a melee Templar to close and kill without expending Heat on MP (Just set OW directly in front of a Melee and see how close they stop)) or Crippling Shot Scout. Slow down the enemies and take away any AP/MP/defenses, so the Berserk can clear what's in front of him.

Until you get better gear and your Auto-Block up to useful levels, they really can't work alone, IMO. Nothing really works well by itself, especially young Berserks.

My two cents, anyway...

[fallen]

capthawk - yes, my play on Ironman is to generally ignore Willpower for all classes. Manage heat through more careful play and more purposeful slowing of your pace. Heat Lock is a constant concern, and if you are rushing Ironman, then expect it to be on your back at all times. I don't think early points in Willpower will change that much, but those points can go a long way in Fortitude or Focus.

En1gma's comment on Buffing is dead on. As the success band narrows, you need to force it back open with Buffs, using every single one. No turn un-Buffed!

Also strongly second En1gma's comments about pairing Berserks. I like going with a soldier, but I am doing 2 Berserks atm and loving it, and a Captain with debuffs & pistol does well as a foil

I also choose to generally ignore Evasion early on. Early on, hitting and killing is better than trying to dodge. Kill the lancers before they shoot you.

[capthawk]

fallen - I'm sorry, I just can't picture ignoring Willpower and getting past Airlock, let alone Extermination. I can't see how you would dare move slowly on either.

I consider those two levels as critical early runs if my squad is going to survive. Actually, my early game is tailored to Extermination, I find it harder at the relative level of squad development than many of the later levels. Perhaps an example of how you have managed that on either of those two?

En1gma - (and fallen on agreed points)
I agree on buffing, every turn if possible.
I understand the pairing idea for Berserk, but can't completely agree for tough early levels. Take Airlock Chambers. With only four Knights, do you dare deploy one you'll have to babysit? Let alone trying to keep the mobs of Xeno at bay. Lol, then again my favorite strategy is to annihilate turn goal on Airlock by just running the left side, and never closing a chamber.
Back to E's point on Willpower also, you don't want to be losing D12 hp just to heat damage every turn, that's another reason I go Willpower too. My thought on fortitude vs. willpower is I'd rather just not lose hp than have a bunch more to start that's just going to literally melt off. Willpower also gives benefits vs. the more deadly armor skipping attacks.
Brutal, so far, has been the last time I succeeded at being able to bring out whoever I wanted for specialists early, by the less Willpower more core attributes strategy.

Consider as well the need to balance deployments so enough Templars catch levels, vs. the need to take your top squad through to survive. Many early levels only allow for six or less Knights.

Just in general, I find it funny I seem to be alone in skip on fortitude on almost all classes early. Rely on gear, I say!

This thread is exactly what I hoped for, more of a discussion than a how to. That's a great facet of TB games, there's not just one way to get it right, but several than can be used with sound strategy. Exactly what I looking for, thanks you two! I'm also hoping to hear other Templars sound off!

[fallen]

Aug 9, 2016 13:36:59 GMT -5 capthawk said:

fallen - I'm sorry, I just can't picture ignoring Willpower and getting past Airlock, let alone Extermination. I can't see how you would dare move slowly on either.

capthawk - I hope you will try the suggestions -- Dismissing the idea ... you may find that ignoring Willpower, or pairing a Berserk ... it could work! To find a working strategy, you've got to try multiple strategies. On Airlock, "pairing" does not need to mean that they are lock step together, but that you support the Berserk with the Soldier. The best play strategy is extremely fluid, responding to threats as they appear. Trying to force anything into "I always pair these two" is not what we are suggesting, but it can be part of a fluid strategy to success.

I can work on publishing a YouTube showing it in action. If I get to that, I will focus on Airlock and Extermination (do you mean Extermination by Fire or Extermination Protocol?).

I can't believe you would be skipping on Fortitude, but I think it might be related to why you are struggling!

[capthawk]

fallen- I want to try the suggestions, I'm just chicken based on my experiences. I did a respec to reallocate points from Evasion though😃 I'm excited to see how it works.

I do understand what you meant by pairing, although in general I keep my troops closely together, whether en masse or separated into smaller teams on multiple tasks.

In this case I meant Extermination Protocol.

I tried to explain how and why I skip fortitude. I don't really struggle keeping troops alive hit point wise the way I run. I've had enough success with this high Willpower and defense attr/skills to bet Nightmare.

It could be the way I choose to run and gun, maybe it just isn't feasible to have certain classes early.

I don't use plus MP gear or MP buffs other than scouts in my early game, but I'll often move the max 6MP. So I generate much heat.

[En1gma]

Aug 9, 2016 19:19:59 GMT -5 capthawk said:

I tried to explain how and why I skip fortitude. I don't really struggle keeping troops alive hit point wise the way I run. I've had enough success with this high Willpower and defense attr/skills to bet Nightmare.

You never really want to take damage in the higher levels of difficulty. It goes back to playing HoS for me, where Constitution is so vital for keeping your characters alive should they actually take damage. Same concept: Should something make it through your layers of defense, I'm of the vein that they need to be able to take the hit, no matter what. By putting points into Fortitude, you help each different class (squishier ones in particular) be able to tank a full turn of an enemy's attack.

Should two enemies make it through, they will make short work of almost any class, which is why I prioritize Fortitude. This also hearkens back to why I make a big deal about Willpower as well-- if you're taking damage every turn and run into a hunter or Shulun forbid an unseen Goliath, they might not make it at all without that investment due to lower overall health bc of Heat.

CdrPlatypus
Brutus Aurelius
--Any other insights you might add to this thread?

[fallen]

I can work on some videos showing Airlock and Extermination.

[Brutus Aurelius]

Aug 9, 2016 20:55:04 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Aug 9, 2016 19:19:59 GMT -5 capthawk said:

I tried to explain how and why I skip fortitude. I don't really struggle keeping troops alive hit point wise the way I run. I've had enough success with this highLO Willpower and defense attr/skills to bet Nightmare.

You never really want to take damage in the higher levels of difficulty. It goes back to playing HoS for me, where Constitution is so vital for keeping your characters alive should they actually take damage. Same concept: Should something make it through your layers of defense, I'm of the vein that they need to be able to take the hit, no matter what. By putting points into Fortitude, you help each different class (squishier ones in particular) be able to tank a full turn of an enemy's attack.

Should two enemies make it through, they will make short work of almost any class, which is why I prioritize Fortitude. This also hearkens back to why I make a big deal about Willpower as well-- if you're taking damage every turn and run into a hunter or Shulun forbid an unseen Goliath, they might not make it at all without that investment due to lower overall health bc of Heat.

CdrPlatypus
Brutus Aurelius
--Any other insights you might add to this thread?

I just woke up, so for now my two cents would be Overwatch is king. Soldiers and Neptunes can each reduce the incoming numbers of Xeno, which, when paired with a melee Captain or Berserker positioned to kill any that get through your Overwatch screen, and a Scout-Sniper to kill ranged enemies like Lancers, you can obliterate any Xeno horde coming your way.

Also, even if you don't focus on Buffs, use them anyway. Even a small boost can make a big difference on those dice pools.