Vraes's spin to win (Sweep love)

[richard]

I think Enigma is correct about the size of the sweep attack.

[bookworm21]

Or an inverse wedge

E E
V E
For vraes and enemies

[Cory Trese]

Very interesting discussion! The points about Dex based weapons and the balancing issues of Big V using any weapon in the game are probably the most compelling arguments against this idea.

[wascalwywabbit]

I guess the argument FOR it boils down to: If you give both ssw and lunge the same AoE improvement, it would benefit Vraes much more than Kincaid since Kincaid has plenty of other options for AoE.

Since BR is so powerful now though it wouldn't be quite fair in that case imo due to the extra dmg BR brings, though it's hard to tell exactly cause although Kincaid's offensive buffs are not as strong per target dmg wise (though superior acc wise when all 3, FU, CF, FB are used), they are a bit easier to maintain defensibility and lunge is Kincaid's least useful talent after the starting 1 imo (easily replaceable by DS 1 too in practice), e.g. FB 9+ every 3 rounds +lunge 1 is gonna bring similar acc and better avg dmg and lower sp use than lunge 10.

Bottom line, Vraes is superior if targets number 3 or less, So he needs other members AoE help much more than Kincaid does; with more targets Kincaid's AoE starts to easily take the lead, especially since 2 of them are debuffs, and the other only needs 1 talent point.

edit: more especially Kincaid is superior when targets clump into pairs or better, whilst Vraes is a bit better when they're spread, particularly with jugg... DS may be an exception for Kincaid.

[fallen]

Thanks for the feedback!

[En1gma]

Honestly in regards to BR, it's powerful, yes, but the negatives are still present. In order for this AoE to be of benefit past base damage levels, BR will be required, at the cost of his impeccable defense.

It's possible to run V without BR, which means the build won't be as damage heavy. AoE SSw won't deal as much damage, but will still be able to hit multiples. This build remains extremely tanky, but adds a bite to an otherwise low damage character.

A BR build already forsakes his defense, so why not give him an outlet to wreak havoc? The only way SSw is effective right now would be with a BR build, so they already have synergy. SSw just let's him increase his presence to make BR even more worth the risks involved with heavier investments.

As to Dex based weapons, they don't deal nearly as much damage as STR weapons. Their lack of defense is even more noted when using a 1 AP version, so combining them with BR is reckless anyway.

Him being able to use any weapon in the game is even MORE reason to allow him AoE with SSw. Think about it-- with the few 4 AP weapons in the game, they are pretty much useless as you get only one attack per turn, and if you miss he just stands there doing nothing, or if he connects, it might not kill what you're swinging at, leaving him less effective than with 2-3 AP versions as they can swing again to attempt the kill. By allowing multiple targets to be struck, he is able to dole out high base damage, which ends up only being empowered by BR or SSw's meager additions.

You could always disallow 1 AP weapons too, just saying

[wascalwywabbit]

Sept 19, 2016 19:00:15 GMT -5 En1gma said:

You could always disallow 1 AP weapons too, just saying

BOOO! :-p

You have it all wrong! Give 'im ALL the weapons! Bow and TKs ftw! Jugg + TKs or Bow+ Kill == teleportation! Seriously. No, not seriously, but it's a fun thought.








While we're speculating relentlessly for uncertain gains... How 'bout give BoS and/or NM an extra ap or two..?

[Cory Trese]

Thanks for the feedback!

[wascalwywabbit]

So uh... hypothetically, how much damage would Vraes do if he fired himself out of a bow? I'm figuring he's got to be at least an 8ap weapon fired as fast as an arrow. Str based naturally and BR 10 too of course...

Picture this: Tiny 1ap dagger Vraes stabs adjacent enemy with juggernaut 7+ spends 1ap, gets 2 back. Then proceeds to load himself into ridiculously large bow (probably a ballista) and fires himself 13 tiles (18 with BoS running start, duh) across the battle field doing 8ap 2h str weapon dmg with juggernaut 7+ again to an ugly, splattering the ugly all over everyone and everything, gets an ap back then tiny daggers another adjacent enemy thru the chest with ferocity 10, yelling the whole time like an insane anime superpowered freak.

Vraes the ballista bolt with super speed!

No? pfft, amateurs! :-p

And now back to our slightly less ridiculous musings...

The just straight up 1-2 extra ap thru NM and/or BoS would have the advantage of not favoring a single empowered attack the same way AoE tends to, but also would relatively favor higher ap weapons, allowing 2 4ap hits, or up to 3 3ap hits even sans juggernaut, for 100% and 50% additional attack targets respectively vs 1/3 increase for 2ap attacks and less still for 1ap. Not quite AoE proper, but more versatile and slightly less OP and imbalanced with BR.

But I'm silly.

[phaze]

Just some comments having tested multiple Vraes parties into Ep 2 so far, trying to find the sweet spot of his character development.

Given the nature of his selfish talents, I find him much harder to use well despite his apparent straight forward talents. The other party members must develop talents to support Vraes and Kincaid is much easier for cohesive party development.

The choices of Vraes involve at the start, avoidance Vraes, absorption Vraes/HP Vraes, or damage/reaver Vraes. Then choose one attack talent for damage or Juggernaut.

Into Ep 2, Vraes can really demonstrate the capacity of BR with epic crits that will keep growing. The negatives are very noticeable though, especially if he is your main tank. Unlike Sure Parry, even high defense dice pools are not a guarantee. With a melee defense of 41 parry, 18 weapon dice, and 13 dodge, (41 strong and 31 weak), he still gets hit occasionally and orcs do massive damage not including the fact that range attacks are a major issue even with max Phalanx. That is with BR of 4. If Vraes is a tank, one has be be really careful with BR.

Vraes' attack talents are really set-up either do massive damage or try for multiple attacks with Juggernaut. If choosing pure damage and limiting Vraes to just three single target attacks, can he do sufficient damage to single targets to justify a lack of AoE? Maybe. I am not far enough yet to thoroughly know the numbers. I can see a glimpse of it with BR...but then also a follow-up question is that does he have the survivability to strike out for must kill enemies? Again, BR and a damage talent with BoS can allow this, but at the cost of defensive capacity. And the kicker with with attack talents is that it only increases average damage. Rolling a low number with Fer and not getting a kill hit is very possible.

With Kincaid having 3 AoE attacks, I believe his damage output simply overwhelms Vraes' output. With lvl 1 SoS on Kincaid, one can easily hit 2-4 enemies per attack, especially around summoners, and have a respectable crit chance and added damage with FU. Plus SoS still uses less SP despite Kincaid having a much more generous SP pool. Given lvl 10 SoS compared to lvl 10 SoS, Ferocity costs more, does up to 150 damage per hit on single targets but SoS can hit up to 8x enemies on each attack. The damage output and functionality with crits seems tilted towards kincaid. Given much of the later game Ep 2 Underforge and Ep 3 and 4 involve massive numbers of enemies, I am struggling to imagine late game Vraes handling those battles.

It is a tricky balance if Vraes is your main front-line character.

So far I really like BR and what it can achieve...I remain unsure of late game Vraes. The discussion of Savage Sweep is interesting as it seems Vraes attacks talents are functionally narrow excepting Juggernaut. Crushing Blow and Ferocity are much too similar, CB being just a cheaper version. Maybe Savage Sweep and Crushing Blow could get some added utility at higher levels? Maybe CB can reduce AP and or reduce damage as enemies experience crushed limbs? And Savage Sweep does a small AoE?

For reference, my favorite Vraes party combo so far is either the original set-up or with Selen as tank, letting Vraes develop offensively without the pressure of being a tank. I've tried with Fyona, but Kyera's EA really helps Vraes through reducing incoming attacks, especially ranged.

For those players with late game Vraes, I would love shared stories of his functionality as my current game experience of all content leaves me scratching my head as to how Vraes holds-up. For a spoiler, anyone with experience of how Vraes manages the monastery fight would be awesome as I shudder to think of that battle and the sheer amount of potential damage. I just restarted an original party and am entering Red Hill Keep where it gets exciting.

[Cory Trese]

That's very interesting reading. I wonder if we'd see less players being so successful with Vraes if we made changes to him, or if we offered a Vraes alternative for free.

From the data, he's by far the most effective / easiest to take to late game on high difficulties, even among those who have Kincaid as an option (ie, they have purchased the alternate characters.)

I really don't see Ferocity and Crushing Blow as that similar, but I'm looking a huge variety of builds and the two of them feature in very different types of group builds for the majority of players.

Maybe looking at all the games as an aggregate makes it hard for me to see individual deficiencies. I dunno, just speaking from the player data it is very interesting to see this detailed, and well thought out opinion write up, so strongly contrasted by the player data.

Lots and lots to think about as we continue to build the E4 content blocks.

[phaze]

Just thinking out loud on the game. A testament to the quality of course

As mentioned, I don't have a high level vraes and would be gleeful to test one.

As a second reference point, I play on nightmare trying for ironman on all parties. This definitely requires exact planning as enemies are not forgiving.

Interesting that you look at CB and Fer differently. In play mechanics, I view them as a means of adding Acc and damage. Fer does more damage and more Acc for more sp. With only finite talents, I don't see a lot separating the two talents.

Some food for thought.

[fallen]

phaze - I find it fascinating that you don't mention Stone Skin once If you want to talk about a tank-Vraes, it is hard to overlook that Talent. Vraes can play a powerful role as the game's best ranged-avoidance tank, but needs to bring the Toughness+Armor to stand toe to toe with enemies in melee combat, when the hits do get through.

You did not mention if you were playing with Shield or 2H weapon?

[En1gma]

He mentioned Soak Vraes, so that might be where he mentioned it.

CB and FEROCITY are similar in that they offer high damage output for lower accuracy. It's a matter of SP and Talent point investment that separates them besides their damage bands. You can spend 4-5 talent points for CB or just the one in FEROCITY and have very similar damage outputs. It just comes with the cost of being the single most SP expensive talent in the game proportionally.

I think the need at this point is for Vraes to be able to target more than one enemy... He is the only character to not have some form of AoE, and even with 3-4 AP weapons he begins to fall behind in sheer terms of battlefield presence.

I can take a group with Kincaid and literally any combination of other characters and end up with a fully functional AoE based party capable of wiping out entire swaths of enemies. Add Vraes instead of Kincaid and you have an amazing late game tank with far diminished damage output simply because Vraes can only target 3 enemies max per turn. (I'm not counting 1AP for this consideration). Kincaid can touch 4+ with just one TK, and he can do it 7 times in a turn. Tam gets long and short range AoE, Selen has PS 8's template. Kyera gets a massive area with Banishment, Fyona has Strickening and Reckoning. The mages both have massive AoE templates to use.

The only way I can think of balancing him besides adding AoE to SSw is making Juggernaut a guaranteed AP/MP return on a kill, to reward him making the kill and giving him his own unique form of AoE in a way.

[wascalwywabbit]

I think I prefer (as in more fun, not necessarily more effective) Vraes slightly for late game to Kincaid when the rest of the party has solid AoE for him to cleanup, but his lack of AoE is really felt mid game, especially since jugg doesn't return ap at all until lvl 4 and then weakly and haphazardly until at least 7.

To me its a dex vs str and AoE vs ap return as much as Kincaid vs Vraes. Dodge is still mostly superior to higher base dmg. AoE is still mostly superior to ap returns.

What Vraes really excels at is mobility and dmg to heavies.

The problem with ssk is it makes your healer need to focus on him more with heals. As far as dmg reductions go, CS may very well be superior, especially in longer battles.

Kincaid does have more areas of excellence, particularly in group acc, AoE, ap/dmg reductions, range and really hard hitting melee tanking. Others like matrim seems to prefer Kincaid for ranged tanking as well, due in part to stealth gear, but I'm not so sure, but I like to combine pshld and BoS.

I do think the recent changes to BR have been pretty huge, but I only play nm for boost-in tests, the rest of the time I don't go past hard. Maybe on nmi BR is too vulnerable still..?

It does seem odd that a CS Kincaid is a better soak tank for much of the game than a ssk Vraes.

I also think for consistency that better ap or ap returns for Vraes and its superior relative benefits to higher ap weapons vs lower ap weapons makes more sense overall than 1 talent gaining AoE, even though I do like things matching their names. Vraes imo needs better use of his heavy weapon arsenal more than AoE probably, and ap gains would do that without nearly doubling dmg for every weapon size like 3 tile AoE ssw would do.

That all said, I don't feel Vraes is particularly strong or weak, except that I have to choose a build talored to support him more than with Kincaid. So yeah I'd love to rely on others less for sp, acc or AoE depending on the build of Vraes and where in the game I'm at, but if you do allow that reliance on other team members to support Vraes he can be quite fun, especially late game where he can cover huge areas- having a chrgd Vincent next to him sundering everything as He juggs through is a blast, RO and banishment for further softening first if needed.