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Post by contributor on Jan 17, 2017 19:45:08 GMT -5
I'm trying something new in leading with Vraes and using Kj's Warding Words to open locked doors for him. I just thought that I would try using WW to open an unlocked door, because it would allow me position Vraes further back. Much to my chagrin Kj sprinted for the door and opened it by hand.
Anyways if WW can be used to open locked doors why can't it be used to open unlocked doors? It just makes sense.
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Post by fallen on Jan 17, 2017 20:54:58 GMT -5
contributor - was confused at first, but I see the report now. Interesting request, perhaps something we can do in the future.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 18, 2017 1:10:57 GMT -5
I'm trying something new in leading with Vraes and using Kj's Warding Words to open locked doors for him. I just thought that I would try using WW to open an unlocked door, because it would allow me position Vraes further back. Much to my chagrin Kj sprinted for the door and opened it by hand. Anyways if WW can be used to open locked doors why can't it be used to open unlocked doors? It just makes sense. I did that in one of my storerooms test to see how viable Kj's WW was as a door opener long game and gave up on the idea when the same thing happened. Had forgotten all about it til now. Glad you were able to pull it out ok though. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 19, 2017 16:50:19 GMT -5
I've been looking into this, and the resulting change is probably not balanced in HoS without major design changes to how monster spawning works.
When I added this feature, it became immediately the 100% required way to "kick in the door" in combats. I'd setup 6-8 tiles back, pop the door with WW and force the spawns to attack "up hill."
By giving the player the ability to run the door-open-defog from a great distance away is definitely non-optimal.
I see why the request might seem, at least a first, attractive, but once added to the game it really fell down badly.
I'm glad I coded it and tried it out ... but ultimately, I don't think it fits with the HoS design that we came up with all those years ago.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 19, 2017 18:20:32 GMT -5
If there's a way to make it more balanced (extra enemy mp maybe?) it's always nice to have more strategic options. Regardless thanks for investigating, even if it was suggested by the excellent contributor and not myself.  |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 19, 2017 18:29:26 GMT -5
This is one of things law of unintended consequences things with game design. Something like this has to be baked in in the foundation.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 19, 2017 19:25:48 GMT -5
My willingness to experiment even if I break things horribly is why I'll always fail at both game design balance and business... I understand what you're saying, I just can't help wanting to tweak things... Also why I can't ironman - too impatient with positioning, always like 'what if I try this...' death that's what, usually death... |
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Post by xdesperado on Jan 21, 2017 18:37:10 GMT -5
Forget game balance  One of the very minor annoyances I have with HoS is that my generally squishier door thief/rogue gets stuck bearing the brunt of whatever nastyness lies behind any door locked or not. Realize this is a game and not real life, but real life military and police forces have found ways to gain entry in potentially deadly situations where the people responsible for opening said doors are not as vulnerable and the combat specialists are in position to deal with bad guys when that door opens. As I said realize this is a game and not a simulation of real life in any way shape or form and certain decisions have been made to provide for game balance. Just gets aggravating to lose an ironman run because your door opener popped a door and got skewered. |
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Post by fallen on Jan 21, 2017 18:39:04 GMT -5
xdesperado - thanks for the feedback. We'll try to improve for our next game that includes locked doors!
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Post by contributor on Jan 23, 2017 18:32:45 GMT -5
Cory Trese, thanks for coding and testing this. I really appreciate your desire to keep things balanced and not introduce game breaking things into your games. There are still a few reasons though to consider making the change. 1. It's a strategic trade-off. Sure it's powerful, but to be able to step 6 steps back from the door you have to invest 9 talent points into it. That's a lot of talent points that aren't going into something else just so that Kj can open doors. 2. It has limited use. In some places there are lot of doors (Redhill for example) but in other places there are very few and players are still going to have to have some plan for getting stealth or tanking the first round. If someone did invest a lot of points into WW they would be spending points on something that is only going to help them in a few situations. 3. It's power can be balanced by re-tooling some of the costs. Also if it's so powerful there could be other trade-offs, such as higher SP costs or slowing down it's distance progression. Ultimately you guys probably have some stats on how players are using this talent. Honestly I'd be surprised if there's many people putting more than a single point into it. If that's the case, making it more useful would make it more appealing as a strategic decision for more players and give a little more flexibility in the types of teams people can build. Flexibility that again comes with trade-offs and has to be fit into a larger strategic plan.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 24, 2017 12:06:39 GMT -5
Great points. Making a more viable progression on environment manipulation spells is high on our list for the next game. Talents that interact with HoS map features (traps, doors) are definitely a weak point in the game. We had really big ideas for how those features were going to work when we originally started laying out the design. Unfortunately we just didn't have enough money to finish the vision, and they ended up in a place that isn't great. I know that fallen and I will do a better job next time. |
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Post by fallen on Jan 24, 2017 13:06:07 GMT -5
We'll keep working on improving. But, when it comes to Heroes: priorities, priorities! I've taken notes on this, but there are some really big items that dominate the Heroes task list. I am sure you can guess |
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Post by En1gma on Jan 24, 2017 13:10:11 GMT -5
Ice Rogue?
...
I'll see myself out...
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 24, 2017 13:54:09 GMT -5
Ooh, a guessing game not made by my kids...
UI updates
bug fixes
penultimate story chunk
bug fixes
new SaS
bug fixes
final story
bug fixes
improved character art
bug fixes
druid?
bug fixes
monk and assassin/ice rogue
bug fixes
bard with group buffs and elemental powers
bug fixes
other cool stuff
bug fixes
LoS...
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Post by fallen on Jan 24, 2017 14:10:30 GMT -5
Lol .. this thread just went off the rails. Sorry contributor |
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