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Post by John Robinson on Jan 21, 2017 16:47:13 GMT -5
I hope to clear up some of my fuzzy thinking. Critical Confusion1. Is this correct? Berserk Rage(6) is a Buff that lasts for 8 turns + Leadership. While BR is active Vraes using any attack such as Savage-sweep this buff gives an 18% chance of landing a critical hit per attack, and if the critical hit is successful, BR will add an additional +24% Critical Damage to total. Vraes Berserk Rage(6) "Frenzied combat; +24 Dmg. 18% Critical. +24% Critical Dmg. -4 Parry, -24 Armor" 2. Is this correct? For Selen, Tamilin, Kyera and Fyona. The critical percent is the chance each attack will land a critical hit. Not the additional critical percent added to total damage. | Selen | Frenzied Blows(6) | +9 Accuracy | +20 Dmg | +9% Crit Dmg for attack | | Tamilin | Aimed Shot(6) | +8 Accuracy | +28 Dmg | +15% Crit Dmg for attack | | Kyera | Smiting Blow(6) | +8 Accuracy | +20 Dmg | +15% Crit Dmg for attack | | Fyona | Hammer Blow(6) | +8 Accuracy | +22 Dmg | +15% Crit Dmg for attack |
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Post by fallen on Jan 21, 2017 17:22:31 GMT -5
John Robinson - you are correct. There are two effects: 1) X% Critical, this engages a Critical hit which does from 200% to 300% dmg. 2) +Y% Crit Dmg, while the number between 200% and 300% is randomly rolled (either 200%, 250%, or 300%) the bonus of +Y% Critical Dmg is constant. So, if you rolled 250% for your critical damage, you'd cause 274% Dmg if you had +24% Critical Damage. If you rolled 300% for your critical, you'd cause 324%. This stat is an additional way for critical heavy characters (Tami, Vraes) to double-down on their Crit strategy. It has also been added to some of the more straightforward attacks for characters like Kyera and Fyona as you pointed out in your table. For those attacks, you'd want to find other sources of X% Critical, because if you don't get a Critical, then you don't get the +Y% Critical Dmg. Hope that helps!
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Post by John Robinson on Jan 21, 2017 18:45:52 GMT -5
fallen Oh Lords of the Underdeep hear my cries and grant my boon It costs Selen 20 Talent points to get a 31% Chance of landing a critical hit. Frenzied-B(10) 15% + Dance-S(10) for 16. It costs Tamilin 10 Talent points to get a 27% Chance of landing a critical hit. Deadly-I(10) 27%. Frenzied-B(10) and Aimed-S(10) are 2 points apart in accuracy and 14 points apart in damage. The extra 14 points of damage Tamilin has makes a big difference in base crit damage. Modern times have arrived in the Underdeep. As a result I think Selen's best melee attack has become obsolete. Frenzied-B(10) is Selen's primary melee attack. Would you consider adding +Crit Damage to this Talent so she can keep up. As the game progresses Selen's dialog shows first her wonder and then becoming a convert/worshiper of the consort of Death Ryethin. Should Selen be denied Ryethin's gifts with the passage of time? Balgair has burned his finest clothes, put on sack cloth, and dumped ashes on his head. On his knees he begins a pitiful pilgrimage to all the wineries in the Underdeep in his quest for Selen's well being. (Do you think he'll buy it? Shut up Vraes don't jinx it!) 
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Post by fallen on Jan 21, 2017 19:44:36 GMT -5
John Robinson - lol, I will take a look. No promises on changing the Talent which is very powerful considering all of Selen's other abilities that can be combined. The two characters are intended to be different. If we go too far down a direct comparison trap, then Tamilin will be suing to get a Quicksilver Defense equivalent.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 22, 2017 0:04:19 GMT -5
Honestly I think the dual wield characters that get the extra crit damage from 3-4ap (2,1 : 3,1 or 2,2) is already pretty strong on crit damage for the first attack(s) and they get lower ap follow ups. I'd rather see them miss less, especially on the high ap attacks... vvks only has PS for minus parry which she won't be using in dual wield... Yes, I'm saying this in part because I didn't like the performance of my rediculous no range experiment, not that the game is intended to be used without ranged abilities... but seriously reck is the only melee cursing parry, c'mon. :-p Actually I don't have strong feelings on the matter so I leave it in fallen 's capable hands. Just thought I'd put in my 2c. |
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Post by crimsonking on Jan 22, 2017 5:33:36 GMT -5
+ 0-14 damage will relate to an average of 20 points of additional damage per crit. I don't see that's relevant when you crit for several hundred or even thousand points of damage. A crit Selen is melee and Tam is ranged, so Selen is far more robust, and Tam needs to stay out of trouble while she can easily pick her targets. I don't think you should compare these two directly. Every character has to be embedded in the team strategy. If you go with Tam, she will likely be your main damage dealer and needs her companions to stay out of trouble. If you go with a melee Selen, she will most likely be off tanking while dealing considerable, but not top nodge damage.
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phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368 
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Post by phaze on Jan 22, 2017 7:30:38 GMT -5
A couple of points. DoS also gives move and stealth for which tamilin needs to spend on black night to achieve, evening out that piece.
Also FB can be used with 1 ap attacks for mega damage as well as dual wield combinations. AS is for 2/3 ap bows only. Direct comparisons are hard.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 22, 2017 14:10:56 GMT -5
Maybe what we really want is SaS upgraded... no ETAs though so... must. be. patient...
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Post by fallen on Jan 22, 2017 14:18:58 GMT -5
A couple of points. DoS also gives move and stealth for which tamilin needs to spend on black night to achieve, evening out that piece. Also FB can be used with 1 ap attacks for mega damage as well as dual wield combinations. AS is for 2/3 ap bows only. Direct comparisons are hard. Yes, trying to directly compare any character is a trap. |
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Post by John Robinson on Jan 22, 2017 16:46:21 GMT -5
If my leveling table is correct each of the eight characters has a total of 44 Talent points by the time they reach level 64. You'll be playing a long time before you get all 44. | Selen | Frenzied Blows(10) | +15 Accuracy | +40 Dmg | +15% Crit Dmg for attack | +16% with D-Shad | 31% +15 Accuracy | 20 Talents | | Tamilin | Aimed Shot(10) | +13 Accuracy | +54 Dmg | +60% Crit Dmg for attack | +27% With D-Init +9 Acc | 27% +22 Accuracy +60% Crit dmg | 20 Talent pts | | Kyera | Smiting Blow(10) | +12 Accuracy | +40 Dmg | +55% Crit Dmg for attack | n/a | 55% +12 Accuracy | 10 Talent pts | | Fyona | Hammer Blow(10) | +12 Accuracy | +48 Dmg | +55% Crit Dmg for attack | n/a | 55% +12 Accuracy | 10 Talent pts |
+ 0-14 damage will relate to an average of 20 points of additional damage per crit. I don't see that's relevant when you crit for several hundred or even thousand points of damage. A crit Selen is melee and Tam is ranged, so Selen is far more robust, and Tam needs to stay out of trouble while she can easily pick her targets. I don't think you should compare these two directly. Every character has to be embedded in the team strategy. If you go with Tam, she will likely be your main damage dealer and needs her companions to stay out of trouble. If you go with a melee Selen, she will most likely be off tanking while dealing considerable, but not top nodge damage. All valid points. I'm feeling a little clumsy for not being more precise. I'm focusing on the change to critical hit balance introduced in October not the strength or weakness of character synergy. On crits I'm also considering all 4 characters listed above. With the new changes Kyera and Fyona spend 10 talent points to achieve a 55% chance to score a critical hit, Selen must spend 20 talent points to get a 31% chance. Tamilin can spend her 20 Talent points to get a 27% chance to score, and then add +60% critical damage. fallen , crimsonking What am I proposing? I think Selen should at least be on par spending 10 points to get at least 55% Critical with her melee attacks, just as Fyona and Kyera do spending 10 points. Currently Selen must spend 20 talent points to get less than half as much critical percent of Fyona and Kyera. (55 - 27 = 28). I've played her hundreds of hours, Selen's frenzied blades is the key feature that defines her among the 8 characters. Or if she must spend 20 of her 44 talents then her current critical percent should stay the same but add some +Critical Damage like Vraes and Tamilin get for 10 points. I don't begrudge any of the other characters getting these wonderful enhancements. I think the assumption that Selen is overpowered needs shaking up in the light of the new critical percent balancing. I still might be comparing apples to oranges here, but something just doesn't feel quite right. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 22, 2017 17:06:53 GMT -5
John Robinson +crit dmg is NOT = crit hit % Fyona and Kyera have no native crit hit %, so must get it from BB, immolation and/or gear! They gain no benefit without being able to crit, similarly AS is the same, it increases the damage of a crit hit, but does not increase chance... It's a fraction of a fraction damage increase.
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Post by fallen on Jan 22, 2017 20:57:46 GMT -5
+crit dmg is NOT = crit hit % It does seem like this might be a part of the conversation that is not clear. Sometimes the terms are getting inter-mixed in posts. Please see my original post in response detailing the two. Can we start by clarifying that everybody is onboard with how the two are different? The fact that Kyera and Fyona have no Talents that increase their Critical %, only their Critical Dmg means that the weight of that bonus very lessened. |
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Post by John Robinson on Jan 23, 2017 0:22:42 GMT -5
wascalwywabbit  I played the fool on that one! I did misunderstand what I was reading. You are absolutely right. I'll change Frenzied Blades in the character tables to something like "Adds 6% chance of critical hit". For the others something like "Adds 30% damage to critical hits". Similar descriptions for Deadly intuition, and Dance of Shadows. Thanks for reminding me. fallen Closing Thoughts: A melee fighter is battling a tough monster. Finally the fighter scores a great critical hit only to see the monster has 10 hit points left. The monster is going to get one more full attack before you can kill it. If Selen could get even half the additional critical damage as the others that would help with this problem. For an archer this often is less a problem because they are firing anywhere from six to eight spaces away, and very likely will get the kill shot before the monster can close. In this limited case I must compare Tamilin to Selen. They each have talents that increase the chance that a critical hit will occur. (27% vs 31%). How is it a melee fighter gets 0% extra critical damage and the ranged fighter gets 60% extra critical damage? My Selen builds fight side by side with Vraes. In big V's dungeon and others like it she leads the attack to move the mages forward to a safer location while Vraes protects the rear flank or creates a diversionary attack. I think level 10 F-B with 40% beats the heck out of zero. The original black and white "Gunga Din" movie becomes hilarious when he keeps getting shot and getting up again to blow the bugle to warn the fort of impending attack. About the eighth time he does it I can't help myself, and bust out laughing. As Cary Grant said "You're a better man than I, Gunga Din". I'll stop here, and stay behind the parapet. Thanks for considering it. 
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Post by fallen on Jan 23, 2017 0:39:36 GMT -5
John Robinson - glad we cleared up the confusion about the two values. I think that makes a huge difference in the discussion, knocking any talk of Kyera and Fyona out of the picture and just focusing on a comparison of Tamilin and Selen. As I mentioned, I feel like such direct comparisons are a bit of a trap, but I will take a look!
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Jan 23, 2017 1:01:25 GMT -5
Selen at peak gets 20+ extra parry (QsD+weapon) to fight toe to toe melee compared to Tam.
Tam has access to larger AoE, higher ranged acc and higher damage.
Stealth and mp are similar.
Armor/res cursing are potentially similar in potency, but Tam can spread it around better in the case of res cursing.
Selen's PS is better for raising melee acc party wide.
Tam can curse more ap, but puts her in dangerously close range to do it.
Tam can curse enemy acc, but only max 3 a turn, and that foregos her chance to curse ap that round...
I think Kincaid and Tam have more pros than Vraes and Selen, but those things Vraes and Selen are good at are so good it still comes pretty close...
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I played the fool on that one! I did misunderstand what I was reading. You are absolutely right. I'll change Frenzied Blades in the character tables to something like "Adds 6% chance of critical hit".