Pyro Engineer Requests

[En1gma]

So first of all, I want to start by saying that the Pyro Engineers are a very refreshing way to play a crucial character. They are able to boost Crit% with their weaponry and Manual Vent, which is very cool, having a lighter AoE -Heat talent.

But their overall flexibility becomes very limited, especially once you realize their weaponry drops to 2 Range by late game investments. They're powerful weaponry, and perfect as they are; despite their limited range. I completely respect and understand the differences between the Flamers and the Revolvers. This being said, perhaps the Pyro Engineer would be well served by providing an alternative Attack Talent:
--I would love the Engineer to be able to have an unlimited use Cross-Shaped AoE attack talent either to replace Direct Shot upon equipping a Flamer, or to develop instead of Direct Shot. This allows the Pyro to act as a mini Hydra, laying Promethium or lasting flames down on the battlefield itself, instead of relying on having an enemy to target.

Since you are sacrificing both the range of a Revolver, as well as the Overwatch from your Turret, the Pyro becomes much harder to play on harder difficulties than the basic Engineer. Because of this I was forced to switch back to the basic Engineer weaponry, simply because they weren't providing enough tactical advantages, for me at least. I LOVE their Turrets, having a stationary flame-thrower that can lock down an entire section and make it impassable is amazing, and lends itself to a completely different play style. I just feel like the Flamers are wasted (or at least handicapped) by only letting them hit 1-2 enemies per turn, and then only at the closest ranges of any weapons in the game. Allowing them a short range AoE would instantly make them more balanced IMO and a worthy alternative to the basic Engineer.

As Posted by forgeking:
I think if anything should be changed it is manual vent, the ms decrease for 2ap is counterintuitive to such a close ranged character. A decrease in ap to 1, removal or nerf of mp penalty and ~35% decrease in crit/accuracy boost to compensate would fit the pyro better.
(Also from Forgeking) Having played the game more and coming to understand fire's ability to suppress spawns, I now do agree with some kind of ground targeted promethium fire ability for pyros, providing them some slight utility otherwise unique to the Hydra without the need to deploy one of their precious turrets. I'm still not entirely sure on spawn suppression mechanics - and I would love a detailed explanation on how spawn holes actually do work - but if all it takes is for the actual hole to be covered in fire to suppress spawns, perhaps allowing direct shot to be ground targeted without AoE but 100% fire chance would make the class incredibly more interesting.

Read more: startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/edit/16074#ixzz52W9dfSMo


Read more: startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/edit/16074#ixzz52W9L8FNG


Thanks as always for your consideration!

[fallen]

En1gma - I can take a look at this request. It would have to have a max use on it, like all promethium-based AoE attacks.

[drspendlove]

Hmm, I have another option you could think on:

What if the damage of the pyro-engineer's flamethrower were reduced a bit and the AP cost of using the flamethrower via direct shot were reduced to 1 AP? They'd run into overheating problems faster but could target and finish off multiple enemies with more ease... Meh, maybe that's not the best idea after all.

[fallen]

drspendlove - it's another possible way to possibly approach it. We have a couple of choices to play with to try to balance -- use a limited attack type, use a smaller AoE, reduce the AP cost of the attack. But, I am not sure changing the AP of the attack fits the game. The plan to keep all main attacks at 2 AP has been really successful, and allowing filler buffs and attacks (grenades, etc) to soak the last APs. I don't think we want to start varying this late in the game. Maybe the attack could do an AoE like Soldier Burst Fire instead of cross shaped. Maybe a small Heat increase.

[En1gma]

If you reduce the AP, the entire weapon set needs to be rebalanced... 1AP wouldn't make this more attractive for me personally-- I just want a better way to use these weapons

[fallen]

Yeah, I think it would be better to avoid having real weapon attacks that aren't 2 AP. Goes against the game's core principles. There are other ways, as you mentioned AoE.

[forgeking]

I run a pyro engineer on brutal right now with a VERY rush based playstyle (designed to maximise xp/rp gains) and it has been very successful. Importantly the hell-mouthed flamer relic has +1 range from compared to other hand flamers, which greatly increases the pyro's combat viability. I've brought him into every battle possible and he's level 16 at Tunnel Complex, with maxed pyro turret, maxed engineer with left overs to tactics +2 in gunnery and a half half split in focus/willpower. This provides him powerful aoe turrets combined with massive close quarters crit damage, often hitting upwards of 150 damage a shot. With the cyclone reactor handling heat he can run into a point, drop a pyro turret for aoe clearing of weaker xenos while a Goliath or carapace is bursted down by the hand flamer. In the following turns for capture, the turret provides distraction and spawn kills new xenos in tandem with the hand flamer.

In general the ability for an engineer to drop sudden aoe clear and spawn denial is invaluable as they have to play frontline in a rush play style to get objectives ASAP. Pyro offers this excellently compared to standard sentries burst fire and overwatch. I've also played with a value point in standards for more defensive play; ai seems to treat lv 1 sentry overwatch and maxed Neptune overwatch the same so having one unit able to deploy both powerful flames and drop overwatch to stall hordes in it for 0 squad cap and stay mobile to do other things is absolutely amazing defensively. The tree requires a lot of rp investment and cyclone reactor is a must along with speed buffs and a melee captain to tank the hits that arise in forward play but I think it is a balanced skill tree offering a unique playstyle to the engineer.

Investments into crit and high mp buffs are crucial to getting the most out of this class. It's not a variable support with turrets anymore, it's almost a cqc glass cannon with turrets. A soldier with high calling shots (ranged accuracy lacks due to investments in engineer and willpower/focus AND critchance) and rallying charge (ms and flat damage, always nice) who should be standard in every team is a particular boon to a pyro.

I think if anything should be changed it is manual vent, the ms decrease for 2ap is counterintuitive to such a close ranged character. A decrease in ap to 1, removal or nerf of mp penalty and ~35% decrease in crit/accuracy boost to compensate would fit the pyro better.

[fallen]

forgeking - great feedback and glad to hear that it is working so well for you! May the xeno burn

Thanks for the specific suggestions on Manual Vent! Will take a look.

[drspendlove]

I agree especially about removing the MP penalty, and offsetting it appropriately.

[forgeking]

Having played the game more and coming to understand fire's ability to suppress spawns, I now do agree with some kind of ground targeted promethium fire ability for pyros, providing them some slight utility otherwise unique to the Hydra without the need to deploy one of their precious turrets. I'm still not entirely sure on spawn suppression mechanics - and I would love a detailed explanation on how spawn holes actually do work - but if all it takes is for the actual hole to be covered in fire to suppress spawns, perhaps allowing direct shot to be ground targeted without AoE but 100% fire chance would make the class incredibly more interesting.

Or perhaps reworking manual vent to a self only cast with cross shaped aoe, creating a burst of ground flame around the engineer in addition to reducing heat, keeping the group heat reduction effect while tying the ability closer to the strengths of promethium fire in area effects and spawn suppression. This would also incentivise more fire resistant team builds and thus hydras as allies, increasing the effectiveness of scorch order indirectly.

[En1gma]

I like the first half, not the second. Dropping flames on your team needs to always be the worst possible idea. It works against the concept of burning off heat to drop Promethium on top of the ones you're trying to help.

The ability to directly target spawn points would instantly make them more useable however, and would be a very welcome addition to their roster.

[forgeking]

I considered that but flames dropped on your team do no instant damage. A cross shape would allow anyone inside to walk out without suffering the ill effects of heat or damage.

[En1gma]

I get what you're saying, but from a lore/gameplay/common sense standpoint, a talent that drops Promethium on the battlefield wouldn't cool a mech suit down, just the opposite. To vent the Heat just to be surrounded by something that's going to raise it doesn't make good sense to me.

[forgeking]

True, I wasn't thinking of it from a lore standpoint. But I suppose a pyro engineer could find a way to both overclock a suit's heat vents temporarily ala Neptune full vent and combine that explosive burst of heat with promethium to set an area alight? I headcanon that anyone running around with any flame weapons has to be a little crazy

The idea behind it is to free up heat to move around while covering one's exit and it does seem that leviathans are fairly resistant to heat anyway, suffering ill effects only standing in the midst of promethium fire or passing through an ongoing blaze. It can be argued that fleeting exposure such as walking out as a hydra burns the tile or moving the moment you vent is an insignificant exposure.

[En1gma]

fallen