Counter attack

[forgeking]

Counter attack seems extremely weak when investments in auto block provide total defence alongside a guaranteed counterattack. Gearing specifically for counter attack, the only way to get it high enough for it to make a difference, leaves you without the necessary defences to take hits in the first place to activate it, making it essentially useless as of now.

Another issues lies in that the highest counter attack % you can reach is 16(Quickness)+12(war shield)+20 (darkline kit) + 8(interlinked command)+12(aegis defence)=68% Max on a captain, significantly worse than stacking auto block even in chance. The paladins is even lower lacking the dark line kit and berserkers are completely reliant on a high wrathful defence, which provides 65 out of the maximum 91% they can achieve.

It seems far too late in the game's history to completely remove the mechanic or to make a major overhaul to it but considering the significant disadvantages it holds over auto block, gear that provides it especially for captains and paladins requires a major buff. Perhaps the mechanic could tie into parry with every 4-5% providing another strong dice for melee defence, or even all defence, or perhaps a significant stat boost to those items making the counter attack a tiny rng topping on the cake for a few bad situations rather than a focus of the items themselves.

[fallen]

Thanks for the feedback! We'll keep looking at this and see what we can do to improve.

[drspendlove]

Counter-attack is helpful when you have access to Paladin(s) with high level Warding Fire that will push your Auto-block to maximum with only moderate investment in auto-block via gear. Putting points in Quickness as a way to get Counter-attack isn't a great idea, as Quickness is the weakest Attribute. My reasoning:

+ Ranged Defense -- Statistically does nothing.
+ Ranged Accuracy for Light weapons -- Helpful, but better served through talent upgrades.
+ Counter-Attack Chance -- Helpful but really only icing here, and that only matters for my Captain who can A) Survive a hit or two, and B) has a light ranged weapon and a melee counter-attackable weapon.
+ Ranged Critical Damage -- Quite nice, but Focus gives the same bonus and gives a unique source of auto-block.

One semi-hidden thing that Quickness helps with that can make a little difference is Grenade accuracy. With the improvements to grenades (now being able to hit all tiles) this stat now shines a bit more for landing blows on Xeno with grenades a little more reliably.

I think having counter-attack be a serious priority is rarely going to be a good idea. But having it be a serious side-benefit of a buffed Quickness could make it balanced. Some ways to do this (as partially discussed elsewhere) include:

- Make Dodge something that can actually happen. (Probably by nerfing the accuracy of some but not all ranged foes. You could thematically imagine Dodge being altering the gait and exact movement pattern of a Templar to be less predictable, influencing foes to miss, rather than literally jumping and dodging bullets.)
- Adding a particularly fun "enable counter-attacks for soldiers" relic that has been well received elsewhere on these forums. (Give soldiers a reason to have Quickness over Focus)
- Buff counter-attacks via Quickness. I suggest something like one of these two options (but not both!) to do so:
- Each point of Quickness adds 2% Counter-attack, not 1%.
- Quickness also grants bonus critical hit chance for counter-attacks. Each point of quickness grants a passive bonus to counter-attack critical hit chance of 1% per point up to a maximum of +16% critical hit chance on hits delivered via counter-attacks. If you want to be fancy, you could have this bonus only apply to counter-attacks NOT due to auto-block.

[forgeking]

I like the idea of Counter attack% providing a buff to any counter attacks themselves and can see it being an effective method to buff them. Something like +2 damage for every 3% in counterattack in addition to the chance itself. Or crit increases.

[fallen]

I could see adding bonuses to any counterattack as the % goes up. Kind of hard to explain simply in game rules, but cool mechanic.

[Cory Trese]

I can see some critical bonuses being fun, but I think the OP is majorly, majorly missing the value of counter-attack as a second, cascaded auto-block.

That is one of the cool things about a game as complex as TBF -- there are entire schools of thought about the value, and the relative value of the builds to each other.

And it also depends a lot on what monster you're fighting, what your squad makeup is, what level you're at, how you're geared ... etc. Auto-block is a CORE element of the games I have won on Ironman, but I'm sure from looking at the player data that it is not required to win there.

[forgeking]

I agree autoblock isn't necessary but my argument is of mechanics being balanced against each other and that auto block's value vs counter attack is a complete washout as it stands. It's precisely about the relative value of these builds both with or against each other and how one outclasses the other by a mile.

Running some numbers off the top of my head for cascading rolls, we replace the war shield with a null shield and equip an arcum blade for 75% autoblock and 66% counter attack. The best of both worlds. This means now counter attack chance is 75% + (25x66%) = rounded to 92%. Counterattack % has provided an extra 17% chance to counterattack for such high investment and we are unable to equip the cascading tact which is core to making most of a high counter attack chance. And those attacks where the % would help are those you would have to tank directly. Which reduces the amount you can realistically make use of it, and it is 100% ineffective in any scenario against ranged attacks.

Even as a cascading roll (assuming it is a separate roll which if conflicts with autoblock, auto block prevails), its value is low. Ironically this makes counterattack% have the most value without autoblock.

[Cory Trese]

Hmmmm ... I'm just not able to see it. The math doesn't add up that way for me I guess, but every player gets to have their own style!

[drspendlove]

Actually, I think the math does add up that way. Autoblock of 75% is an automatic 75% counter-attack. So the remaining 25% (not blocking) is the only area where the counter-attack stat is used.

However, I think Cory's point is that counter-attack isn't meant to directly compete with auto-block, but rather exist as a supplement to it (albeit a weak one when auto-block is high) or a strong supplement to non-auto-block builds. It is intentionally icing on the cake.

I wonder... maybe a post-campaign mission with a particular kind of melee Xeno that ignores 1/2 of your auto-block value would make counter-attack have an interesting niche use. If custom maps and later custom foes are available via modding support, I'll definitely add such a level/foe.

[Cory Trese]

Cool, sounds like you guys have it figured out!