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Post by peddroelm on Oct 12, 2021 7:46:05 GMT -5
I can log skill pool #of dices and values (covers every time those functions are called - so even ship vs ship combat) ATM I log the size of the piles of dices rolled (the functions that do the rolling don't now the 'skill source' for those dices) // comments are added by me checking out my (un molested) ship stats (wasn't hit) during turn 2 // starred the lines of most interest since I couldn't use fancy formatting inside the code block Its somewhat clear for my ship. In order TO ACTUALLY ESCAPE I need to: WIN an escape pool skill check against ? enemy ship pool. AND Resist a ? pool check using my range change pool. In one of those cases the Xenos might? be using their range change score ? What are they using in the other case ?! (clearly a bigger pool or same pool with extra bonus ?!) Their own escape pool ? Do they use their escape score to try and stop my escape ? Also looking at the probabilities .. + Escape cards would be useless in this situation (assuming enemies magnanimous enough no to quick charge) at least until taking some hits and shrinking the escape pool..
What is needed ( besides a lucky roll + range change card .. even with -escape !! ( we have enough buffer) if we have to, talk about opaque / COUNTER-intuitive game mechanics )..So you want to escape those bad Xenos .. You SHOULD try that -minus Escape card that also gives some + range change  ... What ?! ' FORWARD THRUSTERS' to escape ?! ? Yup kid You'd be surprised ! (but `Perfected Approach` might be safer ) Don't focus so much on the 'ESCAPE' stat ! Its a death trap ! ( range change ... range change... range change ..) (its not for escaping ship combat its for escape from the game world ) //xeno ship fires 'weapon' 1
[T: 29291] [109 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [210 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// my defense rolls (my ship defense stats 123 + 124 x 1.29 l meaning, unlike for Crew combat, here the multipliers are included in the dice pile size BEFORE the rolls, not applied to the result. )
[T: 29291] [158 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [159 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
//OUTCOME: MISS
//xeno ship fires 'weapon' 2
[T: 29291] [109 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [210 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// my defense rolls (my ship defense stats 123 + 124 x 1.29 l meaning, unlike for Crew combat, here the multipliers are included in the dice pile size BEFORE the rolls, not applied to the result. )
[T: 29291] [158 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [159 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
//OUTCOME MISS
// escape attempt !
[T: 29291] [72 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [203 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// this was Xeno's counter ESCAPE 'easy'!!
[T: 29291] [91 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [61 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// OUTCOME: WE ESCAPED !!!
***********// Checking [72s + 203] * 1.00 >= [91s + 61] * 1.00 ['Measured' 15000 times!] Probability (of escape) ~ 99.15 % VERY NICE !!********
// THESE ARE XENO SHIP POOL !!! NOTICE MUCH STRONGER THAN the one they used against my escape
[T: 29291] [92 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [145 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// ..Because these are my RANGE CHANGE POOL
[T: 29291] [67 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 29291] [180 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// OUTCOME: THEY CAUGHT US !! (DIE noob ! your escape stat has NO POWER HERE !! exaggerating/ I'm aware BOTH checks must be passed in order to escape )
***********// Checking [92s + 145] * 1.00 >= [67s + 180] * 1.00 ['Measured' 15000 times!] Probability (of NOT escaping) ~ 64.80 % **********
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Post by fallen on Oct 12, 2021 10:30:32 GMT -5
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Post by peddroelm on Oct 12, 2021 10:54:46 GMT -5
I am not sure I follow the part about debuffing yourself helps escape, but certainly debuffing the enemy range change capabilities can help you escape. The self escape debuff in that instance would be 'collateral damage' for gaining a stat needed more in that situation (there are a few trade off combat cards available at low levels that boost range change and penalize escape ). But since in the case I listed the range change Check was more difficult .. my focus (had I been aware of this without peaking behind the curtain) should've been more on the range change stat and not on the one misleadingly name escape. Focusing too hard on 'escape' (it is THE escape parameter right ?) its a sure way to fail the range change challenge (some players might not even be aware of). They CAUGHT ME (my escape was not enough !) .. OK NEXT TIME I'll HAVE EVEN MORE ESCAPE !! You're not giving the players CLEAR feedback as to the cause of failure in this situation ways to mitigating in the future .. " I've failed my escape checks again ! Man this game is really forcing me to focus hard on this one attribute.. Next time I'll focus on escape even harder !" is not the right conclusion a player should've drawn from this encounter .. But because the in-game and even Wiki atm on this matter is still NOT clear . (doesn't event list the case of retreating from pos 5 and opponent chasing / nor what pool checks vs which pool when such positional 'disagreements' occur) I now know the ship trying to escape from range 5 uses its escape pool and its range change pool.. What about the one chasing him? Range Change AND ESCAPE ? Boarding ?! ?? (the situation when they don't fallow you and 'let you escape using only your escape pool vs ?? pool' is not the one so close to the Game Over screen on your ironman mode long game ! Is not worth that much consideration as the one that is. )
To recap . The escape skill check IS NOT (currently) the harder skill check to beat when trying to escape (some/all ?) xeno ships ! You don't think there's anything wrong with that ?
(again - based on what's available in-game / wiki a player failing THE OTHER CHECK(what is that other check ? my range change to defend vs ?) will reach the conclusion HE NEEDS MORE ESCAPE NEXT TIME !! (leading to more future frustration))
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Post by MTKnife on Oct 12, 2021 14:26:01 GMT -5
I think the two of you might be talking past each other. Here's my understanding, from reading the wiki.
With range changes, there can always be two contests; specifically, this happens if one ship is trying to move closer and the other is trying to move farther away. Thus, yes, you might face two contests for an escape (which is basically a range change), but you could face just one, if the enemy isn't trying to close. According to the wiki, at least, an escape roll is essentially just a long-range (range 4 or 5) range change roll, with the addition of an escape bonus.
Thus, an escape buff (or debuff inflicted by the other ship) is just a specialized range change modifier, and, yes, the problem you face here is that the escape bonus won't help you on that second roll--if there is one. I hadn't thought of that, but it's a good point; mind you, I'm not sure how often that situation comes up, since, past the early game, enemy captains who want to close range are usually going to throw out a Twitch Surge at the start of combat, rendering all the rolls moot.
I do have a couple of questions, though. One of them is about the table, which says that an escape attempt can happen at range 4--is there some Talent I don't know about that would allow that? Absent that, I don't see any way in the interface to tell the game you want to "escape" rather than "increase range", since you use the left-pointing arrow button for either.
Second, I find the numbers in your log curious (as someone who's never looked at that detail while actually playing). According to my understanding, outlined above, the Xeno's dice pool should be the same for both your escape and their range change contests. Is it possible that when they inflict an escape debuff on your ship (expressed as something like "-`0 Escape"), it actually increases their own dice pool, not decreases yours?
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Post by peddroelm on Oct 13, 2021 1:20:42 GMT -5
another piece of the 'puzzle' jumped an explorer to range 4 end of first round he tried (and failed to retreat from 4 to 5)
My ship did not roll range change but escape pool ! // presumably his range change pool ? or his escape ?
[T: 30690] [56 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 30690] [91 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
// my escape pool (minus the 5 strong escape bonus that did not apply here)
[T: 30690] [90 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 30690] [279 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
//next turn I added +25 to range change and -10 to escape to my escape pool (perfected approach)
// Got the whole +25 bonus no penalty when using the escape pool to prevent his retreat (90 + 25 = 115)
[T: 30690] [115 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation
[T: 30690] [279 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation
Then I looked through my cards to see if I had any with -escape for him ? Would have to let him get to range 5 before that would apply .. Some other time .. Dices pools changed from above (cards / crippling / he took damage/ etc) +25 range change on him +10 escape (sharp steering and overclocked reactor) Also I'm fighting at 141/142 electronics attempting to conscript a E-TECH (changed ship). EDIT: I Tried to move in 4-3 and he 4-5 (both failed) // MY RANGE CHANGE [T: 30690] [115 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 30690] [232 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation // his ? [T: 30690] [75 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 30690] [82 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation //?? ?? ?? [T: 30690] [97 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 30690] [110 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation //??  ?? [T: 30690] [56 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 30690] [232 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation // this matches my range change standard but 56 above is NOT 115 !! So If I stay put - I counter his attempt with my escape? But if I try to move in I use range change and counter with ~50% penalty to strong range change ?!?!!? EDIT2: another example I move in from 4 to 3 on smuggler check 1 //my range change standard dices with 52! bonus strong dices ? [T: 32527] [96 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 32527] [235 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation //smuggler [T: 32527] [36 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 32527] [74 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation check 2 //smuggler [T: 32527] [32 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 32527] [90 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation //my range change [T: 32527] [44 STRONG Dices] rolled with success accumulation [T: 32527] [235 STANDARD Dices] rolled with success accumulation |
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Post by fallen on Oct 13, 2021 13:24:56 GMT -5
Is it possible to simplify this report into a clear description? I'm trying to understand the narrative story with the self debuffing etc but it would be really nice if you could show provide a 1, 2, 3 reproduction process we could follow.
1. Start ship encounter
2. Use a Talent
3. Try to escape
4. See the ... dice rolls .. ?
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Post by peddroelm on Oct 13, 2021 13:52:08 GMT -5
Is it possible to simplify this report into a clear description? I'm trying to understand the narrative story with the self debuffing etc but it would be really nice if you could show provide a 1, 2, 3 reproduction process we could follow. 1. Start ship encounter 2. Use a Talent 3. Try to escape 4. See the ... dice rolls .. ? this isn't a bug report thread.. this is me trying to figure how it works / how its supposed to work (asking questions) without having to dig into the code for the ship combat turn because there is a lot more going there than in crew combat and I haven't gotten enough of a grasp on the other systems to take that plunge yet .. In short these numbers don't seem to add up (warranting closer look) but that might just be because I don't know how they're supposed to add up in the first place ... |
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Post by MTKnife on Oct 13, 2021 14:25:55 GMT -5
There may be a bug--I would lay it out the way fallen described so that we can all figure out what's going on. At very least, it would make it easier for him to explain to you what's happening.
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... What ?!
??