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Post by Cory Trese on May 21, 2012 20:41:55 GMT -5
I disagree. Not a bug. On purpose.
Altho I can see how it might drive some annoying behaviors ... however it uses active character profession AND negotiation skill.
isn't that what you need to make hiring a face useful?
this is how i play the game. stop calling it a bug.
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Post by grävling on May 22, 2012 3:55:04 GMT -5
I disagree. Not a bug. On purpose. Altho I can see how it might drive some annoying behaviors ... however it uses active character profession AND negotiation skill. isn't that what you need to make hiring a face useful? this is how i play the game. stop calling it a bug. Well, it makes hiring a Face useful if you want to get the experience bonus for negotiate and threaten missions (and you aren't a Face yourself). But it means that if you are a Cybersword with 0 ability in negotiate, you shouldn't let your Face runners conclude any capture mission deals, because you will get the capture mission bonus and they will not. Something seems not right about that. And if you _are_ a Face, with great negotiation skills, then it seems wrong that you should send your Cybersword runner, who has 0 negotiation skill, to negotiate capture missions, because she will get a better rate than you will. |
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nemesis
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Post by nemesis on May 23, 2012 1:55:17 GMT -5
I disagree. Not a bug. On purpose. Altho I can see how it might drive some annoying behaviors ... however it uses active character profession AND negotiation skill. isn't that what you need to make hiring a face useful? this is how i play the game. stop calling it a bug. Well, it makes hiring a Face useful if you want to get the experience bonus for negotiate and threaten missions (and you aren't a Face yourself). But it means that if you are a Cybersword with 0 ability in negotiate, you shouldn't let your Face runners conclude any capture mission deals, because you will get the capture mission bonus and they will not. Something seems not right about that. And if you _are_ a Face, with great negotiation skills, then it seems wrong that you should send your Cybersword runner, who has 0 negotiation skill, to negotiate capture missions, because she will get a better rate than you will. I believe that's the point of getting "specialist" runners. If you focused on combat and have no points in negotiate and electronics it should follow that you get support in aspects that your character lacks so that you have a well rounded team. With my new character who is cybersword, I got myself a gunslinger, a hacker and a face to help me with my missions. That way, any mission that comes my way I can get a 10% bonus and a specialist in that field  I don't think of it as a bug. Think A-Team (the old tv show) and The Expendables. Different people with strengths that makes the team stronger ;D |
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Post by pjhoodsta on May 23, 2012 2:54:50 GMT -5
Nemesis// The Expendables... so your CK must be Chuck Norris?
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Post by grävling on May 23, 2012 6:13:44 GMT -5
Well, it makes hiring a Face useful if you want to get the experience bonus for negotiate and threaten missions (and you aren't a Face yourself). But it means that if you are a Cybersword with 0 ability in negotiate, you shouldn't let your Face runners conclude any capture mission deals, because you will get the capture mission bonus and they will not. Something seems not right about that. And if you _are_ a Face, with great negotiation skills, then it seems wrong that you should send your Cybersword runner, who has 0 negotiation skill, to negotiate capture missions, because she will get a better rate than you will. I believe that's the point of getting "specialist" runners. If you focused on combat and have no points in negotiate and electronics it should follow that you get support in aspects that your character lacks so that you have a well rounded team. With my new character who is cybersword, I got myself a gunslinger, a hacker and a face to help me with my missions. That way, any mission that comes my way I can get a 10% bonus and a specialist in that field I don't think of it as a bug. Think A-Team (the old tv show) and The Expendables. Different people with strengths that makes the team stronger ;D I don't think that I am explaining this well then. Let me start again. I don't think that hiring a Face makes your team any stronger. I think it is a complete and utter waste of money, and I wish it were not. Here is why. I am a Gunslinger. I have rotten negotiation skills, and I don't want to spend the experience points in improving them., So, I think to myself, why not hire somebody who has the skills, who can specialise in negotiaton? Except that it doesn't work out to be worth it. What does having a Face get me? Well, if I let the Face lead, then when I have confrontations, I can bribe my way out of them. No thanks, I',m happy evading them instead with my high athletics and steath Gunslinger CK. I'm actually ok with killing the idiots, as well. But if I have my Face lead, then practically every terrorist attack and roof leak does me damage. Negotiation doesn't help there. Conclusion -- do not let your Face lead the party, you are better off doing it yourself. The next thing that a Face helps with is actually _doing_ the threaten and negotiate missions. But you get the same reward if you successfully threaten and negotiate as you get when your sweet talking doesn't work, and you have to kill them all. And, heck, I am _good_ at killing everybody. So while this is a benefit it is not a great one. The thing that I wish a Face was good for was handling negotiations with Connectors. But this is what they aren't good at, at all. They will get you a 20% bonus on negotiate and threaten missions. But you will lose the 10% bonus on assasination missions. For all other missions they will get you the same price as you could get yourself -- and this is the part that I think is a bug, I think that better negotiation skills should mean better prices from the Connectors, but right now it either doesn't or makes hardly a difference. And the downside is that you have to pay for the upkeep of somebody who is so rotten in a fight that you spend the whole fight worrying about keeping your Face alive. When they die anyway, you are out the cost of armour. and your sunk costs in training the Face. I'd really, really like it if having a Face on the team provided enough benefit to be worth the cost of hiring them, but as things stand now, I just don't see it. |
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Post by Ahab on May 23, 2012 10:58:36 GMT -5
I thought that threaten and negotiate missions were changed so that you don't get money or rep gain if your negotiation skills fail.
If I recall correctly, having negotiation skill affect mission salaries is planned but not yet implemented.
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Post by grävling on May 23, 2012 17:55:09 GMT -5
I thought that threaten and negotiate missions were changed so that you don't get money or rep gain if your negotiation skills fail. If I recall correctly, having negotiation skill affect mission salaries is planned but not yet implemented. You get the money for sure, and I think the rep gain as well if you end up killing everybody. |
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Post by Cory Trese on May 23, 2012 22:34:30 GMT -5
Interesting. So ... am I the only one playing Gunslinger and depending on my Face to do every negotiation? I don't consider the class bonus worth the difference between my DV-ridden CK and my nice friendly face.
I think the Face is the first and most valuable hire for my play style -- I will have to go try a game without him and see if maybe I'm exaggerating the impact -- but it has seemed to be substantial.
Also, Face will be important in "Alternate Combat Resolution" and plays a big role in getting your back room buttons to work well.
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Post by grävling on May 24, 2012 3:36:25 GMT -5
Interesting. So ... am I the only one playing Gunslinger and depending on my Face to do every negotiation? I don't consider the class bonus worth the difference between my DV-ridden CK and my nice friendly face. I think the Face is the first and most valuable hire for my play style -- I will have to go try a game without him and see if maybe I'm exaggerating the impact -- but it has seemed to be substantial. Also, Face will be important in "Alternate Combat Resolution" and plays a big role in getting your back room buttons to work well. I haven't found any significant difference between doing negotiations with Connectors with characters with high negotiation skills, low negotiation skills, or no negotiation skills at all. I haven't found any differece in doing anything at all comparting a Face runner with X in negotiation and a Cybersword Runner with X in negotiation. There is a big difference in the negotiation missions -- namely do you have to kill everybody or not -- but the cash payout is the same. And the heat is often worse if the negotiation is successful than if I just stun everybody. The disadvantage of a Face is that they are a liability -- worse than useless -- in a battle, even after you equip them with cyberclaws, until you train them up in combat skills. Buf if you are going to do that -- well, why not start with a Martial Artist runner and train *her* in negotiation and intimidation skills? Then you get a negotiator when you need one, which is rarely, who is also good in a fight, and best of all can go around stunning people all the time keeping your heat low. |
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nemesis
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Post by nemesis on May 24, 2012 4:21:44 GMT -5
@grav I thought we were talking about the bonuses runners give us when we front them to connectors  I agree that the face is a liability initially but if you train them in negotiate and firearms which does take time, the dividends seem worth it. Faces/Agent EX/Hacker runners are only worth it early to mid game of your character's career. When you've trained yourself to a certain degree, its better getting gunslinger runners to back you up. |
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Post by grävling on May 24, 2012 7:41:19 GMT -5
@grav I thought we were talking about the bonuses runners give us when we front them to connectors I agree that the face is a liability initially but if you train them in negotiate and firearms which does take time, the dividends seem worth it. Faces/Agent EX/Hacker runners are only worth it early to mid game of your character's career. When you've trained yourself to a certain degree, its better getting gunslinger runners to back you up. I don't want to hire a face runner just so I can get a 20% bonus on negotiate jobs. They'd have to offer me something else to make it worth investing time and money on them. Now, if they made *alll the prices* I got from all the stores, and all the Connectors better for me, that would be a significant reason to hire one. This is the 'send the Paladin into the magic store to sell your loot and buy any good looking artifacts, he gets much better prices' rule for pen and paper D&D games. I don't want to spend any money early game on runners and their gear. I have better use for those pennies myself, such as more implants (for me), and better armour (for me), and a 4 job computer (for me). It is when I am regularly taking corps jobs against other corps members that I find it often useful to have runners with me, assuming they are well enough trained, of course. Most of my long lived CK have never shot a gun in their lives, and never hired a runner who knew anything about guns, either. Everything is either stunned or cyberclawed- or with the new Los V reward- clubbed to death. Thus in the mid game I often have 2 martial artist runners whom I am training for the long haul (and raising the money for their type 3 cyberclaws). One of them trains in strength skills and intelligence skills. The other trains in strength skills and persuasion skills. I train in strength skills and in stealth. We skip firearms training altogether. Each runner also trains the other mind attribute that they are not focusing skill training on, so they can get the AP from it. I train both mind stats for the AP, and don't train the underlying skills. And much later, you fill out those skills that you missed earlier on, of course. Everybody wants to get enough intelligence so they can stop using up the medkits. It's just not something you work on before you get basic things like 'great athletics' and 'lots of AP' down cold. It's a different, but still fun way to play. |
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nemesis
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Post by nemesis on May 24, 2012 8:40:14 GMT -5
Nemesis// The Expendables... so your CK must be Chuck Norris? I'm more Jet Li than Chuck. Chuck Norris is GAWD ;D |
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nemesis
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Post by nemesis on May 24, 2012 8:44:10 GMT -5
@grav I think cybersword and martial artist runners are awesome but hard to train. Thats why I prefer gunslingers  |
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Post by Cory Trese on May 24, 2012 9:40:22 GMT -5
I have struggled so much with all melee teams. maybe i'm trying to hard to equip everyone with gear, which is a good technique for a team of gun wielding killers |
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Post by grävling on May 24, 2012 11:16:16 GMT -5
I have struggled so much with all melee teams. maybe i'm trying to hard to equip everyone with gear, which is a good technique for a team of gun wielding killers Maybe. Maybe you aren't spending enough time doing nothing but package pickup for the Los V out of Tuckmore's. Assuming you already have a 3 (and this will be even better with 4, now that I know where to buy them) job computer, you can easily put between 25 and 30 points into your team between sleeps -- which given the hostility Los V will have for you for job picking, and Streets will have for you because most of the ones you accept are anti-Streets will be a matter of sleeping in a few inns or safe houses before going back for more. Then you move on to better paying jobs for cyberclaws and gear for your runners. But you have to train them fairly well first -- nothing is more frustrating than watching a runner die when you have just got them their mark3 cyber claws and type 3 badger skins, so don't bother buying anything but flak jackets and tasers for them until their AP is 9 or so, with athletics of at least 6. |
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