Is trading working correctly?

[tort]

This is in no way an attempt to slate this magnificent game, but I am wondering if the trading system is working correctly. Let me explain...

In all games I have played like this one, your Negotiation Skill, (or trading skill in other cases), directly affects the prices you buy items for and the prices you sell them for. I accept that at a starting level the price you buy items for will be vastly higher than what you sell them for as you are inexperienced. However, at level 55 Negotiation I have seen that I am still paying more for my items than I can actually sell them for, even though the buy price is significantly less than what it was. The sell price has dropped dramatically as well, this I would have expected to be higher because of my increased Negotiation skill.

Is this a bug or an oversight as it really restricts trading either on planet or between planets as you will find it hard to make a profit from even the smallest item anywhere.

[koles]

a good question!
now im trying to play pure merchant on crazy level (and given tip for next update in deferent topic) but i really didnt see much difference between 5 or 15 negotiation skill
on some planets prices between buy/sell are close to each others, on otheres not, but it depends on economy as i see (2 close House Thulun planets)

anyway there cant be situaton where on one planet you buy vodka for 200 and sell it to the same trader for 300... that trader will never do that


hmm i dont know how to make negotiation skill more usefull, and for now, i think that 10-15 is max for merchants, otheres points give more advantage when you put them on pilot/stealth

but we could give some sugestion here

[Cory Trese]

The discussion about "correctly" or not depends on perspective. It is working the way that my game's trading system is intended to work, yes. Is that like other games in the same genre?

Maybe, I'm not sure.

I cannot, for game balance, design something that allows you to buy and sell for a profit on the same planet. That does not sound fun to me at all and I've never included that as a goal.

prices calculate in many factors, but negotiation plays a large role. negotiation also helps with avoiding blockades, securing urban landing zones and the price of repairs, upgrades, new ships.

Star Traders RPG merchant class is all about exploiting the tides of trade in an ocean of sharks and inter-stellar monopolies.

One of my early blog posts talks about this:
tresebrothers.blogspot.com/2010/11/star-traders-rpg-guide-merchants.html

As well as a recent forum, where I make changes in 3.0.6:
startradersrpg.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=rules&thread=148&page=1

I play merchants regularly and enjoy the mode of play.

Star Traders RPG merchant class might work very differently than other games -- and I am pretty sure if you try to play ST RPG by another game's rules, it won't be fun.

That is not to say it is perfect and I'm happy to hear suggestions.

Tip: Good trade routes run betweens major manufacturing capitals and outlying mining planets.

[tort]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply

At least now I understand how you intended for it to work and I can now change my tactics slightly to reflect this new information.

[Cory Trese]

tort,

I'd love to hear your feedback after you give it a try. The newly redesigned resources views under "Galaxy" tab should really help a merchant. The key is to visit many Exchanges to find out the prices and many Spice Halls to find the shortages and surpluses.

For me, the Merchant's victory is buying 200 units of Spice off Javat Prime during a surplus, and Caching it on Rift Lep IV ... and then waiting for a shortage in De Valtos Prime ... if I can run the route I can make $100K a load ... if I can avoid the patrols that is!

Another good one is buying luxury clothing in Cadar or De Valtos Prime and re-selling it on Rinze or to the monks on Refuge Camp.

PS: Check ehkamp's PDF documents for the locations of these places

I get a huge kick out of the planning / execution of merchant class. I hope you can find a way to play that you enjoy as well.

[koles]

Cory, what you mean by 'avoiding blockades'?
I didnt occure any thats looks like blockades that we do

[rfwjr]

Is there a way to see what you payed for trade goods at the time you are selling them on another planet? Playing this on my phone I do not always have something make notes on. I could do it on the phone by switching out of the game, but that would be a pain.

[lonewolf6668]

If you have visited other planets exchanges recently then yes you go into your status tab over to galaxy and pick each item and it will show the prices these get cleared when you exit the game and have to revisit other planets exchanges to get current prices.

[Cory Trese]

lonewolf,

i'll will double check ... they shouldn't be getting cleared too often. you run any other ST RPG killing softwares?

[lonewolf6668]

I run advanced task killer and I force stop star trader before doing updates. The samsung moment has stock apps that drain lots of memory and open randomly in the background.

[jamobey]

"Another good one is buying luxury clothing in Cadar or De Valtos Prime and re-selling it on Rinze or to the monks on Refuge Camp."

-Cory

Hi all,

It seems like there might be planets that are more likely to produce a certain type of good - could this be incorporated into the "rumors" section as one of the generic-type comments? ie "Have you seen the new Spring collection that debuted on De Valtos Prime? Now the entertainers are going to be bothering me for new outfits!".

This is assuming the items a given planet produces aren't randomized. If a certain planet will usually produce more spice than the galaxy norm (or have a better price), it might be nice if the general rumor mill hinted at that. I'd find it more engaging than pouring over the galaxy goods chart (which I also like - I'm playing my first Merchant now).

I also like the idea of fleshing out the rumors more. I might be wrong, but it seems like a pretty low impact improvement - the mechanism for classifying and distributing rumors is in place, so adding more individual rumors shouldn't be too crazy (generating the actual content might be more of a chore). I really liked the recent rumor adds that kind of function like game documentation... hinting at officer locations, or gently explaining game mechanics within the framework of the story.

Just a thought.

Also I think this game is great, and I'm totally stoked about your model for Android game development.

-J

[Cory Trese]

I'd love to hear ideas for additional rumors. They're easy to add.

I have some new improvements coming out -- notably, splitting up the game rumors and flavor rumors into two buttons. Also, avoiding repeat rumors.

The sells here best stuff you are asking about is not at a "planet level" right now, it is a combination of factors.

So, the high volume of spice production is:

Smuggler Faction + Economy 8 + Criminal Economy + High Prince Rating

Find that ... find the Spice =)

[jameskuyper]

Jan 31, 2011 2:31:27 GMT -5 tort said:

However, at level 55 Negotiation I have seen that I am still paying more for my items than I can actually sell them for, even though the buy price is significantly less than what it was. The sell price has dropped dramatically as well, this I would have expected to be higher because of my increased Negotiation skill.

Is this a bug or an oversight as it really restricts trading either on planet or between planets as you will find it hard to make a profit from even the smallest item anywhere.

Jan 31, 2011 17:05:06 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

The discussion about "correctly" or not depends on perspective. It is working the way that my game's trading system is intended to work, yes. Is that like other games in the same genre?

Maybe, I'm not sure.

I cannot, for game balance, design something that allows you to buy and sell for a profit on the same planet. That does not sound fun to me at all and I've never included that as a goal.

You're quite right: the buy price should always be higher than the sell price, on any given planet. However, high negotiation skill level should bring those two prices closer together, by raising the sell price while lowering the buy price. If tort is correct, and high negotiation skill causes both prices to drop, that's the wrong effect for something called "negotiation". "deflation" would be a better name, though how it could be an acquired skill is beyond me.

[Cory Trese]

And I certainly believe that from looking at the code that is how it functions. I will investigate again ...

[celu]

I'm a merchant in real life and I have never encountered a store that will sell less than what they pay for even if it's on close out sales. the closest you can get is to buy back excess of what you sold them at the same price.

smaller retail stores sell @ minimum 35% margin, may go down to 25-28% on specials.
large discount stores like Wally World (walmart) is delighted to sell @ 20% margin.

In contrast, ST-RPG pricing model is economy driven not free market, because the planet is monopolized.

Let's assume for a second that other factions have lemonade stands also in same planet, your wholesale "sell" price will be same across the board, but the "buy" price varies depending on amount of supply and overhead cost. So no gain for suppliers (merchants).

But the model in the game is like buying apples from an apple farm and selling it in the city, where your "buy" is low (supply is high) and "sell" is high due to high demand/low supply.

So, in real life situation, a merchant will find producers/manufacturers and sell it to a thriving neighborhood.

Or even better illustration:
Comparing gas prices between 2 gas station across the street or comparing gas prices between US and Saudi.

@jameskuyper
High negotiation will not change the sell price if the economy is firm (corporate established prices), maybe it will help you bring in larger quantity without the corporate's approval but on local manager's approval or even down to the vudka department sales team leader. In game, that is like what Cory said about bypassing some security measures.

I haven't played merchant yet, but with this thread, it inspires me to start one.