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Post by jameskuyper on Jun 29, 2011 6:53:05 GMT -5
I'm a merchant in real life and I have never encountered a store that will sell less than what they pay for even if it's on close out sales. Agreed - and I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. @jameskuyper High negotiation will not change the sell price if the economy is firm (corporate established prices), maybe it will help you bring in larger quantity without the corporate's approval but on local manager's approval or even down to the vudka department sales team leader. In game, that is like what Cory said about bypassing some security measures. I haven't played merchant yet, but with this thread, it inspires me to start one. In this game, the cargo capacity of your starting ship is a large fraction of the total amount of goods that a planet can export; it's presumably a comparably large fraction of the total amount they could import [1]. When that's the case, a ship owner has a lot more leverage to negotiate with, and his negotiation skill should play a correspondingly significant role in determining the price, even for basic commodities like Water/Fuel. [1] It's not clear to me whether Cory has implemented any limits on the ability of a planet to accept imports. I've never had a planet refuse to accept my entire ship load. Could I take a Frontier Freighter, with all Cargo upgrades, filled with Artifacts, and dump the entire load at one time in Menaitti Settlement (according to the urban zone list I downloaded, the only Urban Zone with an Econ rating of 1)? |
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Post by absimiliard on Jun 29, 2011 7:57:02 GMT -5
Could I take a Frontier Freighter, with all Cargo upgrades, filled with Artifacts, and dump the entire load at one time in Menaitti Settlement (according to the urban zone list I downloaded, the only Urban Zone with an Econ rating of 1)? You absolutely can dump the entire load of cargo in one fell swoop of a market transaction. It's irrelevant how large your ship's cargo bay is, the planet will buy everything you have to sell to it. (to me this implies that a ship is NOT in fact a substantial portion of a planet's imports or exports, but it is admittedly just an inference on my part) -abs |
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Post by celu on Jun 29, 2011 23:01:06 GMT -5
I'm a merchant in real life and I have never encountered a store that will sell less than what they pay for even if it's on close out sales. Agreed - and I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. the very first post suggested so. |
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Post by celu on Jun 29, 2011 23:22:09 GMT -5
(to me this implies that a ship is NOT in fact a substantial portion of a planet's imports or exports, but it is admittedly just an inference on my part) -abs I agree. but rather "A" ship is NOT, but a steady traffic of traders is. Our ship is only 1 of maybe thousands of ships per week a planet make transactions with. So, what you supply today, will have a small immediate impact on the prices. Even if the market says 0, there is no shortage, because all it tells me is: all incoming supply have been pre-ordered and therefore none for walk-ins. I still don't know much about the trading system. But I am so excited to try to decipher some keys on price determination per planet (security rating, economy rating?, surrounding mining planets?), price fluctuation, rumors affecting regular prices (maybe?) Cory already revealed that our credits are tied in to WF of De Valtos prime(?) or was it syndicate capital? (need more research) |
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Post by jameskuyper on Jun 30, 2011 5:28:21 GMT -5
You absolutely can dump the entire load of cargo in one fell swoop of a market transaction. It's irrelevant how large your ship's cargo bay is, the planet will buy everything you have to sell to it. (to me this implies that a ship is NOT in fact a substantial portion of a planet's imports or exports, but it is admittedly just an inference on my part) -abs No, that evidence only carries that implication for imports. For exports, there is most definitely an upper limit on how much of anything we can buy at one time on one planet, an in most cases that limit is easily reached. That doesn't make sense unless our ships' cargo capacity is large compared to the export economy. This asymmetry between imports and exports is a bad idea, I think. In a much more sophisticated simulation, you should not be able to buy or sell more than N of anything at one time, where N might vary depending upon the good, the planet, and time. Every time you buy or sell N items, the price should go up or down, respectively. if you try to buy or sell too many goods, the price should become effectively infinite, or 0, respectively. I've played games that worked that way, but they weren't constrained by the memory and CPU limits of a smart phone. |
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Post by jameskuyper on Jun 30, 2011 5:44:55 GMT -5
Agreed - and I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. the very first post suggested so. No, it did not. ... at level 55 Negotiation I have seen that I am still paying more for my items than I can actually sell them for, ... He did not specify that he could not sell them on the same planet, he made the broader complaint that he could not sell them at all. While this could be interpreted as meaning he couldn't sell them on the same planet, It seems more natural to me to assume that he meant he could not find any planet where he could sell them at a profit. This is, of course, false, but a reasonable exaggeration of the problem that would occur if the situation were as he described. Properly done, the Negotiation skill should reduce the difference between the buying and selling price on each planet, without eliminating that difference. As a result, the higher your Negotiation skill, the easier it should be to find a planet which sells something at a price lower than the price that another planet will buy it. If, as he claimed, Negotiation skill were to actually lower both the buying and the selling price, it would do nothing to make it easier to find such connections. In fact, if both prices were reduced by the same percentage, it would actually reduce profit per ton shipped by that same percentage. Later in the same message, ... it really restricts trading either on planet or between planets ... This implies that he was thinking, at least in part, of trading on the same planet, in so far as that was the case, your criticism is well justified. However, it also makes it clear that he was also talking about trading between planets. |
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Post by gearheadwhat on Jul 1, 2011 1:44:20 GMT -5
You absolutely can dump the entire load of cargo in one fell swoop of a market transaction. It's irrelevant how large your ship's cargo bay is, the planet will buy everything you have to sell to it. (to me this implies that a ship is NOT in fact a substantial portion of a planet's imports or exports, but it is admittedly just an inference on my part) -abs No, that evidence only carries that implication for imports. For exports, there is most definitely an upper limit on how much of anything we can buy at one time on one planet, an in most cases that limit is easily reached. That doesn't make sense unless our ships' cargo capacity is large compared to the export economy. This asymmetry between imports and exports is a bad idea, I think. In a much more sophisticated simulation, you should not be able to buy or sell more than N of anything at one time, where N might vary depending upon the good, the planet, and time. Every time you buy or sell N items, the price should go up or down, respectively. if you try to buy or sell too many goods, the price should become effectively infinite, or 0, respectively. I've played games that worked that way, but they weren't constrained by the memory and CPU limits of a smart phone. It could also just be the limit you can buy at any given point in time. Just because you want twenty tons of clothes or vudka doesn't mean you can get it all in a week or whatever time frame you are in. Though I do like your idea mind you. |
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Post by celu on Jul 1, 2011 10:45:40 GMT -5
@jameskuyper
so basically the complaint was all mashed in one sentence which is oversimplification of the whole trading system.
I just started a merchant class on demanding just to get the feel of it. So far I have no problem making money shipping from Javat mining (metals and crystals buy @ 300+, 400+) to high demand planets (sell @ 500+ both items) and spices from De Valtos (about the same margin) all over.
It takes careful decision if you are going to risk buying @ certain price in bulk and expecting a certain price when you land somewhere else.
So to answer the complaint on the first post:
1. No, you will never sell the same things you just picked up for more money in the same planet.
2. There is always a low seller and a high buyer. It's just a matter of putting the work on evaluating where to ship it to, cost of fuel/repair, risk of pirates and expected margin (which could fluctuate)
Now, regarding prices should retroactively go down if you unload 180+ units of 1 thing, one shot. Is still not as reasonable/realistic. Because the merchants are operating on whole sale cost, not retail
Example:
Spice "sell" @ 400/bulk whole sale.
Merchant whole sale "buy" 450/bulk
Sold in retail (not seen) may be 1600
after dumping a ship load...
Spice "sell" @ 400/bulk whole sale.
Merchant whole sale "buy" 450/bulk
Sold in retail (not seen) may be 1200*
*due to increase of supply for public consumption, street price goes down (not seen)
Prices @ merchant level (whole sale) does not fluctuate dramatically based on supply, instead due to economic condition (constant demand and/or rarity of the supply for the long term) of the planet. This may come from Political policies, distance from other planets and other. These factors, from what I have observed are constant (may fluctuate by a few percentage on normal conditions {no shortage or surplus}). I think those numbers are firm and was programmed that way so a merchant knows where to haul his load, it's just a matter of how much is the margin (still possible to sell @ negative margin due to crossing of %fluctuation {peak prices buy and valley prices on sell})
Right now I'm playing:
Captain Celu Aminix
Demanding
Year 111.8AE
Turns 2816
De Valtos Templar (fully upgraded)
trade permits on all clans (so I wont get shot at)
Has not sold for negative, EVER!
Sometimes I make less money, but always making money.
I thought Merchant class will be boring, but so far I'm getting a kick out of it.
Great Job Cory!
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Post by phantum on Jul 2, 2011 9:30:46 GMT -5
I have wondered about the trading market supply and demand aspects work to the game also. The supply seemed to be highly limited comparing the size of planet economy to the tones of the starship hold, and yet demand seems unlimited as you can sell as much as you want. The economies of near by planets are clearly linked as the amounts available and prices respond to rumours, over the timescales of travel, but on a single planet are essentially static over the same timescales. This and the fact that there is no immediate effect on price when trading, indicates that the planetary economy is orders of magnitude higher than the player traded capacities.
I am curious how it all works, as most other aspects of the game relating to factions, combat, officers have been discussed and much hidden depth discovered. I would like to know if there is more to the trading system than meets the eye, especially since the name of the game was StarTraders.
Is there some sort of under the code bidding depth system where the commodities are available at a range of different prices and it is only the top price seen by the player?
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Post by jameskuyper on Jul 2, 2011 21:15:03 GMT -5
Now, regarding prices should retroactively go down if you unload 180+ units of 1 thing, one shot. Is still not as reasonable/realistic. Because the merchants are operating on whole sale cost, not retail I was not talking a retroactive price change. The effect would be that you could trade no more than N units of a good at one time. Having traded N goods, the price would change, and you'd have a choice about whether you wanted to trade more goods at the new price. I also did not specify a particular value for N. There's no point in it being larger than the typical capacity of a freighter, because if it were, it would have too little effect on the play of the game to be worth bothering with. The value of N, for any given good that's available for sale. should be comparable to, or less than, the maximum quantity you're currently allowed to buy. It should vary with the planet, the good, and time. Note: I'm not actually suggesting this, which is why I'm not posting it to the wish-list board. It requires a much more complicated economic model than is needed for this game. But it would be more realistic. It doesn't matter whether you're dealing with wholesale or retail goods; the market price is still determined by the interaction of supply and demand, with your ship being part of either the supply, or the demand. If your ship has sufficient cargo capacity, and your bank account has enough money, to allow you to buy the entire amount of any particular good that is available on a planet at the current prices, then that inherently implies that you and your ship have the capacity to change the price. That's because running out of the good is precisely the mechanism that causes the price to change; people who had some of the good available, but were unwilling to part with it at the current price, become willing to part with it if you're willing to pay a higher price - and that new, higher price, becomes the new market price. This continues until there's no more of the good available, at any price, at which point the price is effectively infinite. If the size of your cargo hold and budget are not sufficient to affect the price of a commodity, it follows inherently that they should also be too small to exhaust the market for that commodity - you should be able to buy unlimited quantities of that good, at the current market price, constrained only by your cargo hold and budget, just as you can currently sell unlimited quantities, constrained only by your cargo hold. That would make the trading system both simpler and more symmetric, and would more accurately reflect our position as small fish in a huge economic ocean (if that is indeed the position Cory wants us to occupy). [/quote] |
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Post by celu on Jul 5, 2011 18:11:24 GMT -5
If the size of your cargo hold and budget are not sufficient to affect the price of a commodity, it follows inherently that they should also be too small to exhaust the market for that commodity - you should be able to buy unlimited quantities of that good, at the current market price, constrained only by your cargo hold and budget, just as you can currently sell unlimited quantities, constrained only by your cargo hold. That would make the trading system both simpler and more symmetric, and would more accurately reflect our position as small fish in a huge economic ocean (if that is indeed the position Cory wants us to occupy). That doesn't make sense. The supply is not unlimited at any given time. When you land on the planet, they hold a certain amount of inventory depending on the local production and incoming trades. Supply means: what is constantly produced and constantly brought in. Not what you have at the moment. The planet may have exhausted it's current "stock" (when you buy the whole inventory) but the supply is still being produced and shipped in. A trader can dump unlimited because the "confidence" of reselling is present (until a surplus occur) but the hold goods is NOT unlimited because someone still has to produce them. ~ "This asymmetry between imports and exports is a bad idea, I think. In a much more sophisticated simulation, you should not be able to buy or sell more than N of anything at one time, where N might vary depending upon the good, the planet, and time. Every time you buy or sell N items, the price should go up or down, respectively. if you try to buy or sell too many goods, the price should become effectively infinite, or 0, respectively. I've played games that worked that way, but they weren't constrained by the memory and CPU limits of a smart phone." This makes even less sense (for an intergalactic trading system). This game surpasses the complexity and sophistication of those games you played with it's unlimited memory and superior CPU. I played those game too and it's flawed. because the model only recognize YOU as the sole source of supply and demand but the market still has to make money off of you. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 6, 2011 0:37:21 GMT -5
I'll jump in here with a little background.
Your Captain is a "Spacer" and the men and women operating the Exchanges are "Gravs" or "Grounders" and there is a sharp and clear social and political division between these two classes. One of the most stark divisions is in regards to access to resources.
The "Exchange" that the Captain visits is a carefully regulated trade zone that is accessible to both Spacers (independent and reputable faction members as well) and (depending on local customs, rules, laws and traditions) any planet-side merchant with the necessary permits and contracts.
Shalun Law, which governs warfare, espionage, manufacturing, trade and criminal justice defines the rules of the Exchange and the role the Central Database plays in this system. All Trades in the Exchange are recorded and are public record to Spacer and Grav alike. Any who violate the laws of the Exchange can be banned for life or an edict of execution issued by the controlling Prince.
The Prince determines what is available in the Exchange, how much and when. Depending on Faction quotas, military requirements, local consumption very little or no goods may be deemed available to the Spacer Exchange.
In my mental model of the game, the Captain who "ends a shortage" has successfully filled a high dollar order from the Prince. It is the Prince, not the local merchants, who cools the prices.
Visit an Exchange, for kicks, while the Prince is in hiding. You may find some odd things happening ...
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Post by jameskuyper on Jul 6, 2011 6:26:49 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense. The supply is not unlimited at any given time. When you land on the planet, they hold a certain amount of inventory depending on the local production and incoming trades. True, but if you're too small of a trader to have an effect on the prices, you're also too small to run into those limits. "No effect on prices" is only an approximation; every trader has an effect, though it may be too small to measure; but it's a good approximation when you're much smaller than the total size of the market. "You can can buy as much as you can afford, at current prices, without exhausting the available inventory" and "you can sell as much as you want at the current price without running out of buyers" are also only approximations, and they're both true under precisely the same circumstances, and to precisely the same extent, that "no effect on prices" is true. If you can afford to exhaust the available inventory at the current market price, then you can have a noticeable effect on the market price. Supply means: what is constantly produced and constantly brought in. Not what you have at the moment. The planet may have exhausted it's current "stock" (when you buy the whole inventory) but the supply is still being produced and shipped in. The inventory on hand is a buffer that covers temporary imbalances of supply and demand. When it is large compared to the total volume of trade, prices go down, increasing the amount demanded, and decreasing the amount supplied, causing the excess inventory to be reduced. When it's small compared to the volume of trade, the opposite effects occur. Some who can afford to buy enough of a good to convert a large inventory into a small inventory is necessarily someone who's purchasing power is capable of noticeably affecting the market price. "This asymmetry between imports and exports is a bad idea, I think. In a much more sophisticated simulation, you should not be able to buy or sell more than N of anything at one time, where N might vary depending upon the good, the planet, and time. Every time you buy or sell N items, the price should go up or down, respectively. if you try to buy or sell too many goods, the price should become effectively infinite, or 0, respectively. I've played games that worked that way, but they weren't constrained by the memory and CPU limits of a smart phone." This makes even less sense (for an intergalactic trading system). This game surpasses the complexity and sophistication of those games you played with it's unlimited memory and superior CPU. I played those game too and it's flawed. because the model only recognize YOU as the sole source of supply and demand but the market still has to make money off of you. That would only be true if your own sales and purchases were the only ones that affected the model's market price. That is not true in any of the cases where I've seen this kind of model used. One of the two cases I'm familiar with was the stock market in Railroad Tycoon II, where each block of shares that you bought or sold would cause a corresponding change to the stock price; but the same was true of the purchases and sales performed by any of the other players, whether human or AI. That's reasonable, because the players represent the biggest investors in Railroads. The game also modeled the net price effects of all of the other smaller investors who were not players in the game. This model reflected reality, by making it very expensive to rapidly buy a controlling share of any company, and also by making it inefficient to rapidly liquidate your holdings in a company. These are issues that the wealthiest investors have to take into consideration when making large sales or purchases, while smaller investors never have to worry about them. The other game I remember playing where such a model was used is Freecol. If you traded enough goods with your home country, the price would rise or drop accordingly; but in the background, the price also varied on it's own, due to all of the other trade, both locally in the home country, and also with other nation's home ports, ports that your colonies were prohibited from trading with directly. So - no, these models do NOT imply a solipsistic world in which you are the sole source of supply or demand. A model which made that assumption would, logically, have to prohibit trading entirely, because you'd have no one to trade with. This game's economic model does randomly generate shortages and surpluses that cause significant price swings. These shortages and surpluses are easily relieved by the efforts of a single VV. I've so far never needed to make more than three trips to a planet to relieve a shortage or a surplus. That economic rumors disappear on their own if not attended to implies that there are other traders in the game; that we have so much power to speed up the disappearance of of those rumors implies that there are not a lot of of other traders. Our ships must be more significant players in the interstellar economy than you give them credit for. If we can relieve a shortage by unloading a single VV, we should be able to create one by loading it (at least, if we choose the right time and place to unload it). If we can relieve a surplus by filling a VV, we should be able to create a surplus by unloading it (in the right time and place). |
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Post by noesis on Jul 6, 2011 12:41:06 GMT -5
I think the biggest thing here is that we are dealing with planets of unknown sizes. Just because there isn't much in the exchange of a certain good doesn't mean the planet doesn't have it's own stockpiles on the planet of those goods for it's own use, so they don't let spacers buy huge amounts of the goods. It doesn't mean they are at risk of a shortage in fact quite the opposite - they still have stockpiles, they are only selling the excess to spacers that they know they don't need. Same with selling goods to the exchange, again they don't even necessarily need the goods they're being sold but do know they can sell them for a profit or use them on planet if need be. This all changes under a surplus or shortage rumour - The fact that a single VV hold can end a shortage simply means you heard about it late or got there late, The fact a surplus can end with a single VV buy means the same - a VV only has 40 Tonnes of space !!! even on earth today that is nothing compared to ships transporting goods to other countries ! and is also nothing compared to the ST ships with large holds. Point is a single VV ship's hold doesn't mean much - sure it may get to a planet and end a surplus or shortage (after other ships helped that we don't know about as players) but that doesn't mean such a small ship can start them also ! - Only the planet princes without a clue as to how to manage goods can do that  Finally I wonder how far you travel to end such things if only 3 trips always does it for you you. I've encountered more than 12 for some of them, but the further you travel the less trips needed as other ships help end them for you |
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Post by phantum on Jul 7, 2011 4:30:52 GMT -5
@ Cory,
Ahh thank you so much, that explains everything really thanks Cory, so the trading is really just working with the prince/ruler and not an open market to the whole planet. That also makes sense in the way that smuggling and other facets work, so you can not just find an 'independent' merchant who will take items at a discount for no political hit.
I could try another merchant class now, with the understanding of this background it would be a lot more enjoyable. Although my current pirate is quite fun, deliberately not being 'politicly correct'...
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