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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2012 20:50:51 GMT -5
That's like gunning, where after a while your just not gonna hit and you have to try a new strategy. Alright I'll do that for now on.Thanks cory
Could you still look at that log though? The last 4 times in a row I've gotten hull/engine breaches from ram and two of the enemies had a lv a lot lower than me and a much smaller ship. This never happened before. And the text under the combat screen when I ram is all wrong too.
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 1, 2012 21:53:52 GMT -5
Took a detailed look into the log you sent. Spent about an hour and a half doing this research, which is unfortunate because the only outcome is another confirmation that everything in ST RPG is working as expected in this area.
We've got some known issues, for example, the Ram damage text reports are often inaccurate because they report 2 of 6 damage counters (as discussed in several of your threads.) However, neither your log, my research nor 30 minutes of simulator time show any problem, cause for concern, or mathematical anomaly.
You say it "never happened before" but the code in place has been running in ST RPG for more than a year without any changes or related changes. Dice will surprise you, from time to time, and show you a roll you've never seen before. Especially when you roll such big dice:
Incoming RAM vs.NPC had shot of 384 and hits of 18
Spreading Damage of 281 at a halfDamage Rate of: 140 in 4 ramming runs
Engines damage: 113
Incoming RAM vs.PC had shot of 192 and hits of 16
Spreading Damage of 139 at a halfDamage Rate of: 69 in 4 ramming runs
Engines damage: 68
It looks like a lot of this is related to the repeated Ram button jamming, which puts so much into the "table" so you're ship will be at risk of high damage, but also have the option to do extreme damage.
You'll find some smaller Pirate ships do just this -- they're design to use the Ram jamming approach to maximize damage with a small hull and armor. They're one of the more aggressive AI and just looking at there stats I would strongly argue that Ram jam isn't a good strategy for a *player* unless 50/50 destruction sounds like good odds. This is the very reason why that AI is pegged into the lower level Pirate ships. It makes no logical sense that a ram-crazy captain would survive to level 46 so they just eliminate that AI in the picker.
I understand you're pushing the boundaries of the game and trying to get things to change in your favor but there are always going to be strategies that aren't optimal, or aren't optimal at all levels. You're describing EXTREMELY advanced characters with top end ships who are fighting like Level 4 Pirates. This is not wise and will probably often sudden death events, as you describe. Pick a strategy that is appropriate for your ship, risk level and play style.
If you play the game the same way when you are betting $1 as when you are betting $10,000 you're going to see results that may not scale to your expectations. That, my friend, is the nature of a gambling game. Ram jamming at level 4 and level 40 are different things to you, as the player, because there is different amounts of time invested.
Thanks for sending the log, I appreciate the details, it helped narrow down the report and guided the research.
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 1, 2012 22:10:58 GMT -5
I now have a page of notes about Ram damage and will use them to improve the game going forward.
One, improving Ram Damage Reports
===========================
Ram damage comes together from six different rolls, more than any other damage type, which makes the damage report in the little text very different than the other damage types. If you saw zero damage and lots of ship hits it was probably a couple of stacked critical hits.
Definitely not a new topic, has been discussed on the forum and improving damage reporting in both iPhone and Android versions is on the roadmap for next year.
Two, Ram Damage Upgrades and Options
=============================
There are always new Upgrades and Ship Designs being considered, as well as Officer and Character class bonuses and all this research certainly has helped me makes notes about where we could add new features and such.
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 1, 2012 22:15:05 GMT -5
And of course, I'm not going to rule out the possibility that there are still bugs in ST RPG (for Android or iPhone.)
The Android edition is hundreds of thousands of lines of code, data, lookup tables and all revolves around random numbers and complex simulation logic. I'm confident that we look when we're asked, do the research that's needed and come back with honest answers ... but that doesn't mean we've eliminated every possible issue in the game's code base.
We're always looking for ways to improve and that is why I always respond to these threads.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2012 2:03:03 GMT -5
When I was logging, I didn't jam the ram button. I closed and rammed immediety once. No ram jamming occured during the log.
It seems from what your saying that ram is very risky and it isn't an optimal strategy to focus on ramming as your primary attack. I apreciate that you looked into it. I'll stick to gunning as my primary attack.
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 2, 2012 4:04:50 GMT -5
When I was logging, I didn't jam the ram button. I closed and rammed immediety once. No ram jamming occured during the log. I was only guessing because the log included just one attack and appears to be somewhat edited or truncated by LogCat. My guess was that it was an excerpt from a larger log. I think Ram is a VERY viable option, if used correctly. Not everyone will like or use every strategy and it might just be that you don't like Ram the way I do or other players do. However, from a in-game-world standpoint, ramming two massive hulls together in an aggressive action is the plan of a maniac or a very desperate person. Think about how different the in-game-world conceptualization is for a cannon barrage compared to a "ramming speed" type attack. Consider for a moment that each of the buttons is meant to be different, if Gun and Ram worked the same, then Ram would be redundant and not add much. The game's depth comes from inter-related and inter-dependent concepts and divergence in action-reactions simulations based on contextual, direct and environmental inputs. Simulation of collisions of large objects at high speed show massively chaotic results and thus, the Ram system must contain substantial chaos. What player wishes to build a Captain around the extreme chaos of collision simulation, and bet on the results? A maniac or a very desperate person  |
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Post by fallen on Dec 2, 2012 13:33:35 GMT -5
Did someone mention Rabid?
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BlastGT1
Templar
[ Heroes of Steel Supporter ]
Turning ships into shards with Alchemy
Posts: 920 
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Post by BlastGT1 on Dec 2, 2012 20:11:57 GMT -5
Kinda sounds like him, lol. A strangely lovable maniac, assuming you're not on the business end of his chainsaw, that is.
_______________________________
Every day I'm torpin'.....
Party Torp is in the tube tonight,
Everybody just have a Torp time.
Hull breach will make you lose your find,
Pirates stealin', just have a Torp time!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 0:49:11 GMT -5
You say ram is a very viable opion if used correctly, and that I may not like ram like you or other players do. Am I missing something? Its not that I don't like it, but rather my ship get destroyed whenever I use it. Is there some type of strategy or method I'm not aware of that helps reduce the giant risk of losing your ship every time you ram, in addition to simply not jamming? Why would anyone like, or even use ram unless they had no other choice, if they could easily lose all their hull by doing ram, no matter their stats and strategy?
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 3, 2012 1:08:57 GMT -5
You seem to post a lot about using it against lower level and smaller ships.
It seems to me that you are (I could be wrong) trying to use it in non-optimal ways.
Facing a smaller lower level ship, the optimal strategy seems like it would be to use your primary weapon of choice (Guns or Torps.)
Facing a larger, agressive, board-happy AI with higher level ... now Ram suddenly takes on a different level of usefulness.
You have the chance of doing massive damage to the enemy AND gaining range (no matter the results of the enemy's attack.)
Also, since you're able to transit Range even if you loose Board (Ram is the ONLY function that permits this type of Range transit) you can "Crew strand" an entire wave/boarding party from the enemy.
I use Ram when ...
- My character is less than Level 10
- My hull is less than 20
- I am facing poor odds using Gun
- My Captain has low health (so I don't want to board)
- I need to gain Range because I either way to Torp or Flee
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Post by Cory Trese on Dec 3, 2012 1:11:05 GMT -5
The rules and scales and math functions cover from Level 1 to a billion, but I usually get more and more conservative as I level up. Dying at Level 8 is less painful than Level 80.
Once I get into the 20+ Hull Range I'm usually fighting ships with lower Hull which just makes using Gun easier.
Also, I usually find that as my Hull gets bigger my ship gets less Agile on average.
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BlastGT1
Templar
[ Heroes of Steel Supporter ]
Turning ships into shards with Alchemy
Posts: 920
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Post by BlastGT1 on Dec 3, 2012 8:50:48 GMT -5
Sounds to me like the best strategy for ram is not to use it unless you have little or no option but to do so. Unless your captain's name happens to be Rabid Rabbit and you do it for kicks.
_______________________________
Every day I'm torpin'.....
Party Torp is in the tube tonight,
Everybody just have a Torp time.
Hull breach will make you lose your find,
Pirates stealin', just have a Torp time!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 16:05:55 GMT -5
Sounds to me like the best strategy for ram is not to use it unless you have little or no option to do so. Unless your captain's name happens to be Rabid Rabbit and you do it for kicks. That's how it sounds to me also. If you are at risk of dying, then and only then should you use ram. Or if you're at a low level, in which neither ship can do much damge and the risks are smaller. I've noticed that as my level goes up, the more damage each ship takes when I ram increases. It also seems from what Cory is saying is that that ram is SUPPOSED TO be extreamly risky and therfor me alwayes losing my ship due to ram is normal. |
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BlastGT1
Templar
[ Heroes of Steel Supporter ]
Turning ships into shards with Alchemy
Posts: 920
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Post by BlastGT1 on Dec 3, 2012 20:41:10 GMT -5
I would assume so, since crashing your car into other cars will also take yours out of commission.
_______________________________
Every day I'm torpin'.....
Party Torp is in the tube tonight,
Everybody just have a Torp time.
Hull breach will make you lose your find,
Pirates stealin', just have a Torp time!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 16:18:53 GMT -5
In terms of increasing sucess rate for ram (not damage rolls), would battle prow or ancient reactors be best?
Also, would the vet increase success chance for ram or just damage rolls for ram vs aliens?
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