Hand Holding?

[grävling]

I think that part of the problems is that in the Tunnels you get 'special missions' to go on, which give you unique and interesting rewards. When you exit the Tunnels you don't get a single one until the end of the story. And 'work this ladder' doesn't have the same feel. it's a fine thing to do, to raise money, to raise rep so that you can get rep related purchases in VIP lounges and the like, but it's a think to do until your sponsors call you for something important.

But I think it would be more fun if they had some 'not as important as an Operation, but still important enough that we called you' missions sprinked through your MnB NBZ experience.

Especially if you had the option to turn them down, and make Luka more and more unhappy with you until she washes her hands of you --- a different way to end the story.

[fallen]

Thanks for the great discussion and all the feedback! I think the first priority is to shore up the existing path through the NBZ so that characters don't get lost along the way missing the marker signs (i.e. Texas instead of Lt. Simon, getting too distracted or sent to dangerous places by Cava). Then we can look at further beefing.

The other thing weighing on my mind is that this is a tutorial story. It is intended to be one of a number of stories. It is not intended to be the end-all-be-all story. Something to keep in mind when tempering your MnB feedback!

Thanks again!

[grävling]

Feb 21, 2013 14:38:07 GMT -5 fallen said:

Thanks for the great discussion and all the feedback! I think the first priority is to shore up the existing path through the NBZ so that characters don't get lost along the way missing the marker signs (i.e. Texas instead of Lt. Simon, getting too distracted or sent to dangerous places by Cava). Then we can look at further beefing.

The other thing weighing on my mind is that this is a tutorial story. It is intended to be one of a number of stories. It is not intended to be the end-all-be-all story. Something to keep in mind when tempering your MnB feedback!

Thanks again!

I think about this, but I think in terms not of 'saving these other things for a different story' but rather that every story should have many, many, many more conversations in it.

I am getting the idea that you think of a story as a way to get from point A to point B with some stages in between, and maybe 3 possible endings or so

and I think of stories as a mesh, or hedge, of interknotted things that can be attacked many ways at once, and only rarely have a direction, or a path to follow.

They are knots to unravel not orders to follow in a particular order.

does this make sense to you?

[xdesperado]

Feb 21, 2013 14:38:07 GMT -5 fallen said:

Thanks for the great discussion and all the feedback! I think the first priority is to shore up the existing path through the NBZ so that characters don't get lost along the way missing the marker signs (i.e. Texas instead of Lt. Simon, getting too distracted or sent to dangerous places by Cava). Then we can look at further beefing.

The other thing weighing on my mind is that this is a tutorial story. It is intended to be one of a number of stories. It is not intended to be the end-all-be-all story. Something to keep in mind when tempering your MnB feedback!

Thanks again!

This might be coming a bit late in the game then, but if it is truly meant as a tutorial and not a full fledged stand alone story, then perhaps it needs to be shortened a bit and much more "hand holding" along the way. Hook people up with Cava or another ladder connector as they come out of the tunnels, but let them get the rewards from that ladder connector just as you would in sandbox mode so they learn how the system is supposed to work in normal game play.

Telling a great interactive story is what RPGs are all about, and you can have a good story as a tutorial. However I think MnB may have gotten to caught up in the great story part and be falling a bit short of the mark as a tutorial.

A possible solution might be to break it into two parts. The tunnels and a short bit topside being the core tutorial that teach you the game mechanics and acquaint the player with various game ideas like ladder connectors and how they function. Then a second story arc that you can involve that same character in that has much less of the "Hand Holding" that the tutorial would need, but still offers reasonable direction to further the plot.

To be honest I've not played through the tunnels then tried to tell Luka and Mercur to get lost so that might be a viable exit to the tutorial already leaving you with a somewhat experienced character for sandbox style play.

Want to try playing through the whole story line and see at least some of the possible resolutions to things, but finding it a bit frustrating to do without referring to hints here in the forum.

[fallen]

Thanks again for the opinions. Now everyone seems to be talking very much at cross purposes and the original thread was lost.

grävling - the intention of our very first story in Cyber Knights was not to create a rich, multi-threaded, multi-branching story. It was to create an interactive tutorial (i.e. a simple, but engaging story) that walks the character through all the major topics in the game and leaves them in the sandbox after presenting one of three optional endings. We got endless feedback about how confusing Cyber Knights was, and this was a good solution. Sorry that you aren't happy with the tutorial. I can weigh in that the feedback has been that MnB has helped reduce confusion about how to play CK (when there aren't bugs blocking people!)

xdesperado - Do you find the tunnels not clearly enough a tutorial with the right level of hand holding? From my POV, the story is very clearly broken into two parts (tunnel, 50% of the time and NBZ, 50% of the time). I was agreeing in my previous post that once you reach the NBZ the "tutorial" part becomes less "hand-holding" and more expecting you to wander your way through, even if it is still introducing game concepts throughout. I can see that the second half of the story could be "tightened up." However, I think part of the tutorial should be understanding the more loose reality of the NBZ, so from my design, it was a good point to introduce you to the "real world" and give you some leash to explore on your own. When I have played through the story, I rarely go straight up Lt. Simons ladder and instead (as gravling suggested) work for other factions, let my hatred for the streets burn off, hire and train a team of a few runners, make and spend some money, and then get around to doing Simon.

Again -- its a great discussion and I appreciate it. But we'll never please everybody, so at some point, MnB has to be what it is -- an interactive tutorial. Thanks!

[xdesperado]

fallen the tunnels make a very good start of things as far as a tutorial goes. Yes they could still benefit from a few more minor tweaks but for the most part are a great way to introduce a new player to CK.

As I think I made clear earlier the real problem lies with what happens after the tunnels.
For me at least there hasn't been quite enough direction on how to move the story along. I've found myself a bit stuck yet once again after hiring Kid Blaze at the 740 club. Took him back to the Mars sectors and while he hacked a bunch of paydata all I got was near total destruction of my Mars rep and serious global heat with no clue where I'm supposed to go looking for the mother and daughter.
Just rehired KB after cooling things off and rebuilding some Mars rep. So will head back up there to try again.
Really enjoy CK and I'm a fan of cyberpunk games and fiction in general. With that being said a more casual type gamer might get turned off on the whole game if they have to much trouble trying to follow and complete a story line.

Hope you don't think I'm being overly critical and for my part I'm going to keep plugging away until I figure out the proper paths to take for the story to reach a conclusion.

[grävling]

I also think that the parts in the Tunnels work well as a tutorial. It's the part after you enter the NBZ which suddenly isn't a tutorial --- where losing track of what I am doing and for what, if any reason -- starts being a problem for some people.

[fallen]

xdesperado - if you've got KB tagging along, you are heading in the right direction!

Definitely not taking it critical, just trying to make sure we all agree on the steps to make it better. As I posted above, I still think the first priority would be (per your feedback) "to shore up the existing path through the NBZ so that characters don't get lost along the way missing the marker signs (i.e. Texas instead of Lt. Simon, getting too distracted or sent to dangerous places by Cava). Then we can look at further beefing."

[xdesperado]

Well just finished the story...Wired Nerves III and a nice contact with Mars to earn some ¥ for future chrome.

Now I'll have to do it all over again and give Mars the finger at the end. ;D

[grävling]

Feb 21, 2013 23:52:35 GMT -5 xdesperado said:

Well just finished the story...Wired Nerves III and a nice contact with Mars to earn some ¥ for future chrome.

Now I'll have to do it all over again and give Mars the finger at the end. ;D

and there are 2 ways to do that. ;D

[grävling]

I think one specific problem that can be addressed is that, if you don't have enough rep to get into see Lt Simon and ask:

I am here on official business, is the Lt in?

You get told

This is a restricted research facility. We cannot allow you to enter.

--------

This doesn't scream 'you need more rep with BS' to me.

Perhaps a dialog:

Sorry Knight, but you aren't on this list.

Are you sure? I've been doing significant work for Brave Star and I was sure that the Lieutenant would want to see me.

The Lieutenant is a busy man. Looks like your significant work hasn't been significant enough yet.

But ...

Sorry Knight, this is a restricted research facility. You can talk to the Connector if you like, but otherwise you will have to leave.